Discussion in 'AeroFly FS 2' started by HiFlyer, 27 Feb 2017.
Brilliant! My goodness... Sounds like Siri.
Are you using this system Devon?
I am a bit confused at what the point of this is all about.
I thought it had to do with a user interface in VR or something, where (I am guessing) you don't have physical UI controls, keyboard/mouse, etc. But he doesn't seem to be in VR mode in the videos, so is this supposed to remove the need for keyboard/mouse during non-VR flights
I appreciate what he is trying to do, I went through similar exercises in FS9 & FSX with a voice recognition program called Game Commander 2. I had gone all-out with dozens of commands, and when it worked, it worked nicely. But once I started getting into the guts of flying from point A to Point B, all of a sudden I was becoming a slave who must clearly state every command at the proper speed, volume level, and speech pattern for the program to differentiate one command from another, and that was with MY voice. If the program is using the recording of HIS voice as the fingerprint for each part of the command comment, that could be problematic to other users and if any command at all is a struggle, immersion is going to be derailed. Even in his short video there were many times when the commands were not heard or incorrectly set.
How to word the programming of the commands gets very complicated, and leads to the accuracy issues with commands like "Flaps 1, 2" etc, where each command begins with the same word. I think what ended up working for me was "UP or DOWN FLAPS" for increments, and "FULL FLAPS" and "FLAPS DOWN" for full throws, as you can see , each phrase is completely different.
In FSX, where the ATC interface used number selections, simple 1-10 number call-outs worked perfectly, were instantaneous, and were never misread. Admittedly, anyone listening might wonder why you are calling 1, 1, 3, 1 etc, but it worked very well nonetheless.
Some controls like landing gear or speed brake are toggles on or off, so they are easy enough with "GEAR" and "SPEED BRAKE". But trim, altitude, radios? No, it is way too much trouble verifying whether the correct setting has been made or not. If the user can't just say "altitude 10,000", or "NAV 1-117.5" it is too much work. But again. there is a good example of where the utility may become confused when the number 1 is repeated three times in the same command, so maybe program it to use the phrase "NAV 1" to initiate the change (perhaps followed by a bell), and then the phrase "117.5" to set the radio followed by a voice call-out of "117.5" to verify the setting. The thing is, when we manually set the frequency, we can see it is set correctly, if we use the Voice rec, we have to look and see to know it is set correctly or not, and as the narrator found out more than once, if it is wrong it must be changed.
Of course the commands must be programmed to use the simulator's keystrokes, so commands like what I just described that are logical, realistic, and easy for anyone to remember, may not be feasible.
It sounded like he was using a Playstation/Xbox type game controller rather than a joystick. What crowd is this utility appealing to, gamers?
I think he will find it problematic to do away with the physical interface for the NAV/COM radios, I think he will find it is a big deal to change radio frequencies with voice recognition, and that there must be better ways to do it, ways which don't add to the burden of similar sounding phrases the recognition system has to sort through for the functions it is better suited for. And, whether it be the text to voice female in the first video, or the phrases he recorded with his own voice, all of the unrealistic call-out, read-back would get old real quick, especially when "talking" to ATC.
In essence, one would apparently have to memorize every phrase for every command just as he has programmed it, and I just don't see it happening. I hope I am proved wrong.
If his system uses the same or similar voice recognition as modern smart phones, the commands in the sim are going to be wrong probably 20-30% of the time, and we haven't even gotten to outside interferences such as dogs and birds, because their barks and chirps are going to be wreaking havoc with his voice recognition utility. I found this out the hard way when I kept crashing on landings and finding that my gear was up when I knew full well I had it down. It finally dawned on me that the chirps of my neighbor's lovebird were being interpreted as a landing gear command, and the dog barking across the street toggled my speed brake. I had to make my mute button my PTT switch, which was a PITA.
I think that this is going to turn out just like Game Commander 2, it will work great for the basics, and it will be a non-immersive crap shoot for everything else. I hope he works the bugs out and gets it figured out, but just like he bailed on the first version, as he goes along he's going to find that too many repetitious phrases are going to lead to the necessity of cutting back to the basics. Yet if he can get the basics working really well, it will be awesome! We'll have to wait and see if he has the perseverance to make it to the goal line, right now he is not even in field goal range. Maybe the technology is there, and he just needs to get it dialed in to the point where a balance of realism and the most necessary aircraft systems can be well managed within the limitations of the software.
It is interesting though, and fun to watch someone else going through the learning process, and while I am sure he will come up with something that does as much as it can for him, it remains to be seen if it will work the same for others without the need for their own voice as the recorded command fingerprints.
Yes, I'm messing with it.
What this is really doing is laying the groundwork for ATC using your actual voice. Other commands are good for use in VR, and if you want, on a monitor with the voice acting as a virtual co-pilot. This might be especially useful in moments when you are distracted with other tasks.
I'm not sure how long ago it was since you've tried voice commands, but it's very very very (go on for several more) dependant on the quality of your microphone. When I first tried it a few years ago, it was hopeless, and it never occurred to me that it might be the mic. I tried recently with a cheap Mic and again there were issues. But with a quality mic (and the one in the Rift is very very good) the story is very different.
With the addition of voice attack software, voice control is suddenly very very comfortable, and at some point, it becomes a no-brainer since voice-attack allows just about anyone to set up very complex commands and responses in minutes, and it will work with almost any program, using either text-to speech, or recorded voices and sounds. I suspect some enterprising person will introduce FSX/P3D Profiles at any moment.
Tutorials for instance. Imagine if you could simply ask for a verbal explanation of any complex aircraft function on the fly...... Or have VA do complex key combos that have nothing to do with flying a real plane.
Glad to hear voice recognition technology is moving forward, but that guy has such an odd approach it is unnerving. I think the perfect example is his "Turn right 5 degrees", which is then repeated by his co-pilot. Realistically, if he was on a heading of 150 degrees, he would simply tell his co-pilot "turn right to a heading of 155" and the co-pilot would respond with "155".
That's my point, he is not approaching the terminology from an aviation standpoint, but ad-libbing from a layman's standpoint. Likewise with ATC, they won't ever tell you to turn right 5 degrees, they will tell you to turn right to a specific heading, thereby removing the possibility that the pilot's perception of his heading is different than what the ATC is seeing, very easy if you are in the middle of a turn....however, turning right to a heading of 150 is crystal clear.
This is a very good indication of the culture gap between gamers, and flight simmers. In aviation, radio communication terminology is very important, and ad-libbing is frowned upon because there are often too many people trying to talk at the same time, so it is important that communications are made with the established terminology guidelines, using proper call signs, and phonetic alphabet.
As I mentioned, the odd phrases this guy used will work great for him, kind of like how one might organize their music files in a way that they can find things quickly, while someone else looking at their files would have to figure it out because it is not in a format that makes sense to them.
He really needs to familiarize himself with aviation terminology and ATC methodology before he tries to come up with something that he would like to share with others, because I think that very few aviation enthusiasts would be able to enjoy his current offerings. Perhaps gamers might be able to go with the flow, since they are likely unfamiliar with aviation terminology.
LOL, the whole thing reminds me of some guy scribbling quasi-scientific formulas across a series of blackboards which might impress a room full of onlookers who have no idea what they are looking at, but anyone who understands theoretical science would be shaking their heads at the absurdity.
Again, don't get me wrong, the man has skills, it is just painful to see him butchering time tested standard aviation terminology. He needs to get hip.
I still am unsure what this guy is presenting here, and quality of the microphone notwithstanding, I still doubt others would be able to use the commands he has recorded as some sort of profile......are you using his commands?
Actually quite a few people are using his profile, making requests for additional commands, and adding more themselves.
I checked out your link, and most of it seems even more confused than the guy's strange approach to changing headings. As for voice recognition generated co-pilot responses and whatnot, that really should be a separate animal, crawl before walk before run before fly.
Basic controls and then communications once there is something to communicate with.
Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no ATC in Fly2 yet is there? Why these people are recording long lists of hypothetical responses to an ATC format that hasn't been revealed yet makes no sense, just as the vast majority of the responses and contact phrases I saw listed were not remotely similar to what actual tower/ground/ATC communications would look like, a point that some of the participants have been repeating.
I get it that these folks are playing around with seeing how to make things work, but it seems that as far as communication goes, their carts are out in front of their horses. They need to learn about real world aviation communications, and wait till the ATC is released to worry about what to say to them, because it is the Fly2 ATC which will dictate the phraseology, and if it is like every other flight simulator, they will format it based on actual aviation communications.
So sure, they might be able to record their own voice responses using those phrases (once they are known) to replace whatever their default response within the ATC would have been, but that would entail recording every possible airport and control area designation, which will certainly preface any initial contact i.e., Fullerton ground, Cherokee 23456 ready at General aviation with information echo for taxi to the active. John Wayne Tower, Cessna 34567 5 miles east inbound for landing with information alpha. SoCal Approach, Bonanza 45678 with you at 5000 feet.
With GC2 in FSX ATC, I only had to say the number of my selected response to initiate my comment within the ATC, and the listed responses were not the same as the comments they would initiate. For example, the above call to John Wayne tower would have been the result of selecting "Contact John Wayne Tower For Landing" by simply speaking the number 1 from a list of local airports.
I get the feeling the guy in the video would want to select the number 1 by speaking "Contact John Wayne Tower For Landing", and then have his imaginary co-pilot give the tower a call....
I can't see how Fly2 would go out of their way to deviate too far from the FSX ATC model other than to add to its capabilities with more selections to choose from, but no one will know till they know.
In the mean time while they are all waiting to see what the ATC looks like, websites like liveatc.net are an open book to aviation communications and any listener will notice that everyone is saying pretty much the same things at every airport coming, going, and on the ground. There are also many videos at YouTube with cockpit chatter between pilot and co-pilot to model routine altitude and heading phrases on.
As a final thought, if you really want immersion, figure out how to play liveatc.net recordings (they have archives of downloadable 30 minute recordings from many airports) in the background while you are flying, I do it in FSX with a CDplayer addon that mixes with the FSX audio and plays mp3's.
OK, I said my peace...enjoy your new toys!
Not really. If people are enjoying themselves, then the software is doing its job of being entertaining. That's pretty much the difference between enthusiasts and the general public: enthusiasts sincerely want to be pilots, or return to the cockpit virtually if they were once actual pilots, or even practice if they are current pilots.
I think most people only want to pretend to be pilots, and for them, complete and utter veracity/complexity for its own sake isn't necessarily the goal (at least at first) since they aren't looking for a training experience. (Though they may be drawn in and want to learn more, later)
These are the people who go in their millions to air shows and the Smithsonian to have a nice time and go home, not who spend time in forums discussing whether a new planes gauges are registering the correct atmospheric pressure under such and such circumstances.
(Or if they do see such information, they've likely forgotten it by the time they get home)
And yup, Ipacs will eventually come in with something official, but if people are happy with this in the meantime.... well, think of the alternative.
Thanks for the clear and concise explanation of what these folks are doing, and what inspires them.
It most certainly must keep them occupied and as you alluded to, is better than if they simply spend their time either flying their aircraft into hillsides, bridges, and buildings, or jousting with inverted 747's over Manhattan.
Now that I think about it, being a non-conformist is cool and fun, and there is no reason to stick with the stuffy and routine jargon of aviators, and controllers.
Pilot to co-pilot: Check the reading on the how high we are gauge.
Co-pilot to Pilot: We are one little black line, and three little white lines past the number 6.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well, push the go down button three times.
Co-pilot to Pilot: Roger, pushing the go down button three times.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well. Call ATC and inform them you are giving the hand signal to turn left 3 degrees.
Co-pilot to Pilot:Roger. Calling ATC and informing them I am giving the hand signal to turn left 3 degrees.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well.
Co-pilot to Pilot:ATC confirmed my hand signal and we have permission to push the go left button three times.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well, push the go left button three times.
Co-pilot to Pilot: Roger, pushing the go left button three times.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well.
Co-pilot to Pilot: ATC requests that we go a little faster.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well. Push the go a little faster button twice.
Co-pilot to Pilot:Roger, pushing the go a little faster button twice.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well. What is the reading on the how fast we are going gauge?
Co-pilot to Pilot:Roger, checking the reading on the how fast we are going gauge....it is reading the second white line between faster 3 and faster 4.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well. Check with ATC to verify our what time we get there.
Co-pilot to Pilot:Roger, checking with ATC to verify our what time we get there.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well.
Co-pilot to Pilot:ATC says that our what time we get there is when the little hand is on the 6, and the big hand is on the 3.
Pilot to co-pilot:Very well. Push the open the window button.
Co-pilot to Pilot:Roger, pushing the........Aww Man! What's that smell?
Somewhere out there, those conversations, or close to them, have surely occurred.
Come to think of it, considering how automated planes and cars are becoming, such conversations might eventually be the future of aviation!
Remember that space sim? I forget what it was called.... It had this also. It was really nice. You had tons of things to do in the, so when coming to a space station, you could do a lot of automating by voice to work all the controls.
You are probably thinking of Elite Dangerous.
Yep! lol... Great game except that all the kids in there are just pirates, so you couldnt go anywhere as you were always attacked... sigh.
Well you could always play single player, or even better try one of the private PVE servers. Nobody is allowed to attack you there or they're booted.
Try joining Mobius or Mobius Pve https://elitepve.com/page/about
Interesting... I didnt know about that. I have been away for a long long time now...
A lot has happened in that universe, and with the arrival of the aliens, a lot more is about to happen.
Separate names with a comma.