• Which the release of FS2020 we see an explosition of activity on the forun and of course we are very happy to see this. But having all questions about FS2020 in one forum becomes a bit messy. So therefore we would like to ask you all to use the following guidelines when posting your questions:

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    By following these guidelines we make sure that the forums remain easy to read for everybody and also that the right people can find your post to answer it.

I coded an Export for .mdl files.

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All,

I don't think we have to drag this thread in the direction of who's voice is more credible. What is important is that as developer community we can discuss this topic, how do we see tool abilities that are useful, but on the other hand might also affect the community as a whole since it can affect piracy and the protection of ones work.
 
As far as piracy, it's already here. Dozens of FSX aircraft are being converted and they are missing gauges, animations and effects. At least if they are processed by a decent tool, they may function and appear better after processing in Blender or 3dsMax. I don't believe this tool would increase or decrease piracy. And I do believe this conversion process will eventually become common by another tool if this one isn't published.

I think it could be a great learning tool, aside from the darker implications. I understand the ethical ramifications. But by conversion to MSFS, the sale of FSX MDL planes and scenery is not diminished. The possible future sale of these products for MFFS is being diminished... but why haven't these already been converted by the original developer? Perhaps because they need a tool just like this to convert them to to a format that can be imported to Blender or 3dsMax?

So if we are voting here, I lean towards publishing the tool as open sourced on GitHub with warnings about the theft of intellectual property. It may not be much different than ADE and MCX regarding airports and scenery objects from FSX. And SBuilderX might be included in that pile of great tools as well. All have the possibility of copyright violation.
 
Jay Bloomfield said:
Are any of you aware that the most recent E-jet models from
FSPXAI have a "safety lock" and are not viewable in MCX?
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I know of one developer that he spend quite some time to modify his models so that they will crash MCX, but the sim will read them correctlty. That is something he has done based on the piracy concerns discussed in this thread as well.

Since he has asked me to respect his choice, I have added a message to MCX when you try to read such a model. I mean, I can't just have the tool crash on models.
 
rhumbaflappy said:
but why haven't these already been converted by the original developer
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1. Don't you think that the developer can at this moment work on the transformation or schedule work on model? And if you understand at least a little bit in modeling and understand this process, then you should know that this process is not fast and difficult. especially if the author wishes to improve and transform the model into a better product with new features and materials. And now imagine that at the same moment his brainchild will simply be stolen and converted by hackers and lazy people who do not even have the knowledge and skills that he has for many years of work, do you think his desire to continue development will increase or decrease? The number of real and high-quality models and developers will decrease significantly after the hacking tool appears.

2. Do you seriously support distributing the keys to your house, safe, car wherever you go? I think no! and you will be totally against it 100% So why do you support the creation and distribution of tools that provide penetration into other people's things and projects, theft of someone else's property?

3. Yes, theft or as you call it piracy (the word by which thieves and murderers cover up their criminal activities) is taking place now. Do you propose to develop it? Do you really think that this theft, violence and murder will be beneficial?

Among other things, the hacking tool will force developers who still remain and will work on their projects to invent and make security tools, this will increase development time, production costs, and with this the cost of commercial products and will add a lot of problems to real developers.
 
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We are writing about aircraft models from FSX primarily. MCX already does a good job of converting static models, and ADE already does a good job of converting airports. I'll add here that Asobo is well aware of these 2 programs and was inspired by them (and SBuilderX) in their development process for the DevMode.

There are already tools that convert FSX aircraft to MSFS, and in fact, the sim is designed to allow that due to the concerns of the community about losing their FSX 'investment'. The big problems with these converted aircraft is that the gauges don't work properly, and perhaps a few other discrepancies. Many of these conversions are making their way to the freeware sites for download... most without any permission from the developer or distributor of the FSX product.

The proposed tool is different. It extracts the model and it's animation to a glTF format. This allows study of the modeling and animation of the original FSX aircraft, as well as conversion to a format that can be recognized by the MSFS. But the gauges and handling of the aircraft are still the same as the FSX MDL import already supported by Microsoft and Asobo. So from a hacking perspective, this tool probably has little use as it's end result is essentially the same as the much easier process already commonly used. The net result is that this tool won't increase piracy, or even have any effect on the process of piracy. It's primary value is for study of modeling and animation, and to assist the developers of the original FSX aircraft to easily get their MDLs into Blender or 3dsMax so they can be fully adapted to MSFS. (Most probably by allowing a greater number of vertices and triangles, and using MSFS materials).

Arno has decided not to allow export of FSX animation to the glTF format in MCX. It's an ethical decision he has made, and I fully support his decision. The OP has a different opinion and I think it is similar to what I have outlined above. Hackers and lazy people won't have much use for the proposed tool as it would involve too much work to get a result that already is easily obtained. I do realize this is an emotionally charged topic and I respect the opinions of all involved in the discussion.
 
The SDK provides all the tools to learn. It takes developers years to create and study all this. But here provide a means of using this long-term work without any restrictions and costs from anyone, that is, the illegal exploitation of someone else's labor and time. In addition, the models that will be used in equivalent market value have a high value as a separate product and this product will be stolen. Are you inviting developers who have spent years on their creations to come to terms with this illegal use? Providing an easy way to use someone else's labor, a program that hacks everything that has been working for many years, another person will never teach anyone to do and do everything right, but will only add unpunished, illegal and illegal use of someone else's products harming true developments. Do you want new developers to learn from someone else's grief and harm everyone who knows and knows more than them? I have already written in the posts above what this will lead to. And this is 100% so it will be, if this program is created and becomes widely available, then many of those people who absolutely do not care about the years of work and many years of experience of others, on investments and projects in which a lot of funds and efforts have been invested and are being invested, will use they will destroy everything, bankrupt projects (I have come across a lot of such people) and then the Sims will certainly turn into arcades without high-quality products and the right attitude to development.
And one moment. We are gathered here in order to create and share experience, create something new and improve existing on a voluntary basis, honestly and openly at our will, based on the observance of laws and rights. A program that provides an opportunity for the illegal use of those knowledge and skills that the developer does not want to make publicly available will lead to the fact that the entire format of this site will turn into a booth with legalized pirates and shameless individuals who will use all means to destroy all the precious experience accumulated over the years of development, knowledge and skills experienced and decent craftsmen will cease to be valuable, they will simply leave and new ones will no longer appear. Do you want it all to come true and find out where it will lead? Then perhaps my words and warnings will be remembered, but it will be too late.
 
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I'll leave the thread with the idea that your vison of both the past, present and future of developing for Fight sims differs from mine.
 
I would like to drop my 2-cents into this thread while it's still active. As the founder of Aerosoar, I say I have extensive experience in the aircraft development side and can answer some questions regarding FSX conversions and Native Development.

Question #1: What do I think this tool will be used for?
Answer: 10% Animation Support. 90% Better FSX Conversions & VR Integration. 0% Copyright Infringement. Why 0%? Well if I wanted to steal something, I could already steal the mesh data using MCX, and animate the objects myself. All this tool provides is animation data. I can already convert .mdls to a variety of 3D file formats and steal whatever I want. So this tool is useless unless you are trying to use it for animation purposes or building a better MSFS conversion. Are animations copyrighted? Well, we know the .xml coding isn't. However on the 3D side, we can already convert FSX Models to MSFS models while maintaining animation integrity using importers. To say that giving a developer a deeper view into the animation data is a copyright issue... is just madness! For example, I just finished Wingflex on my Discus-2b Glider, hardest thing I had to learn with Blender. I would have loved to dive into the DG808s wingflex animation in GLTF format, but I couldn't. Would I have stolen the work? No. What could I have stolen anyways? The keyframes? Sure, I could have replaced the wing mesh with my wing mesh and used that animation work. Either way, looking or scraping those keyframes, would have saved me 10 hours of work that no one seems to have answered on these forums. Like I mentioned, biggest fear is stealing mesh data not animation data. Are keyframes copyrighted?Probably not... your main concern is someone stealing your mesh data and that is already possible thanks to MCX.

Question #2: So why do I want the tool?
Answer: As stated you can already import FSX aircraft to MSFS. So what is the big "Win" of this tool. Well #1 is VR Support. By converting to .gltf format and preserving that animation data, you can finally convert the FSX aircraft to work with VR without the use of workarounds. Those workarounds are very bad at the moment, trust me I know, I discovered them. Also, as mentioned I would primarily use this tool to investigate how animations were made. As of right now, I can only see a rough draft version using the slider in MCX, deep diving into those animations would save me tons of time. Next, I would use this tool to BUFF up any FSX aircraft. Obviously we are aware of copyright complaints with these conversions. But MOST websites that host MSFS mods verify that the newly uploaded mod is an original mod or a converted mod with proper permission from the original developer. I can't tell you how many Readme files I've read where the Developer is ok with redistribution and modification as long as it's for non-profit. We all know the rules, so don't break them. With this tool or not, I could break those rules, this isn't really providing me much more. Now back to buffing up FSX models. With this tool and it's .gltf conversion, you can finally add nodes to the original model. Which in turn, you can add lights, MSFS Pilot models, MSFS particle effects, floats, weapons, 3D gauges, and other great features to your FSX conversions that the in-game "Legacy" features lack. On top of that, you can create a project folder and FINALLY edit the aircraft in-game using the aircraft editor. This will allow for critical conversion from legacy to native. Giving the developer amazing control over the modern flight model and building the aerodynamics, system, engine, geometry, camera, and contact data to work natively and more realistically in MSFS. You could almost rid the FSX aircraft entirely of it's legacy constraints. This is a great thing for the community because FSX conversions will stop flying like bricks and looking like Roblox.

These are all great things to consider, but as far as copyright concerns, they are already here with this tool or not. You aren't gaining any extra protection by not releasing this tool. Instead all you are doing is destroying the community development and slowing the overall learning process of the new SDK and modeling practices for new developers. If I wanted to steal Sound, 3D mesh data, scripts, html, etc... I already can. Everyone who has a basic understanding of MSFS development knows this by now. The real question is this... Do you want to lock down the ability for someone to convert your FSX aircraft to MSFS entirely? Or would you rather give the community a new tool and provide them with another process to converting FSX models to a better, native, newer, modern version that works as MSFS intended.

It seems like the main concerns are money, someone releasing your project as a chop shop or stealing pieces off of it. Well, money will just increase. If the conversion process gets better, people will buy your old FSX models to undertake the conversion themselves. As far as chop shop releases. The hosting mod-sites are the issue. They are ones responsible for not allowing copyright distribution. If someone wants to steal pieces off your work. You can thank MCX, Legacy Importer, Blender2MSFS Toolkit, MSFS2Blender Importer, and other community projects that do just that. I personally see no issue with this tool and anybody who wants to see it gone needs to advocate to remove the FSX conversion process entirely.
 
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Let's also take a look at the gauge side of things. If you can create gauges for MSFS in Visual Studio, you can also use the dotNet Reflection process to dismantle other people's gauges and then rebuild them as your own. It takes a wee bit of careful reading of the resulting Reflection code to figure out what's going on but it isn't difficult. On the grounds that Visual Studio can be used for easy piracy and it is a free download from Microsoft, does that mean we have to ban the use of Visual Studio? And if so, how are we going to build gauges?
 
DragonflightDesign said:
Let's also take a look at the gauge side of things. If you can create gauges for MSFS in Visual Studio, you can also use the dotNet Reflection process to dismantle other people's gauges and then rebuild them as your own. It takes a wee bit of careful reading of the resulting Reflection code to figure out what's going on but it isn't difficult. On the grounds that Visual Studio can be used for easy piracy and it is a free download from Microsoft, does that mean we have to ban the use of Visual Studio? And if so, how are we going to build gauges?
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Exactly, your right. Honestly we could reverse engineer FSX conversions all day. And like I stated above, "I personally see no issue with this tool and anybody who wants to see it gone needs to advocate to remove the FSX conversion process entirely." The ability to steal work is already there and this tool provides little negative affects to that. Just major positive conversation applications. On to your gauges, in a lot of FSX conversions, we can't extract most gauges yet. By using this tool, we can finally replace those missing gauges with 3D gauges or rename those materials in Blender to finally use in a VCockpit. Another great thing for FSX conversions. I mean, who doesn't want the Icon's Aera Navigation System in a FSX conversion right? Or a 3D needle spinning under reflective glass in VR?
 
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NewkTV said:
Exactly, your right. Honestly we could reverse engineer FSX conversions all day. And like I stated above, "I personally see no issue with this tool and anybody who wants to see it gone needs to advocate to remove the FSX conversion process entirely." The ability to steal work is already there and this tool provides little negative affects to that. Just major positive conversation applications. On to your gauges, in a lot of FSX conversions, we can't extract most gauges yet. By using this tool, we can finally replace those missing gauges with 3D gauges or rename those materials in Blender to finally use in a VCockpit. Another great thing for FSX conversions. I mean, who doesn't want the Icon's Aera Navigation System in a FSX conversion right? Or a 3D needle spinning under reflective glass in VR?
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What are you talking about defending the legalization of theft and making it even more accessible? And now imagine the situation, I purchased a model under an editorial license, paying a rather large amount for it and used it in the project, it took 6 years of training, studying the plane and work to create a model with animation code, made a model in mdl format, which is still more or less protected and then some outsider makes a program to steal this model that allows you to just steal it in a couple of clicks. Do you think my editorial license allows me to place a model that will be hacked and used? All my work for 6 years goes to dust and the project fails.

Do you think what you want to allow at all? You are trying to legalize theft and you say it's okay, are you serious?

Why would I then make a model in order to run into a $ 100,000 fine from the license holder? And why would someone then make models, study SDKs, programming, when you can steal someone else's freely and don't care?

As for the MCX, it still remains loyal to the complete hacking of someone else's work and with its help is not yet complete hacking and control of all animation, mesh and code. I know this tool and with the help of it I still can't completely convert and steal the model in any format in a couple of clicks.


And instead of doing it right and protecting developers from being hacked, a hacking program is discussed here. Why then would an experienced programmer who can write such a program not write a security program with reliable code that would protect the developers? Here it would be more than useful and I can say that the release of new products with such a program has accelerated and improved a lot.
 
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I've just spent most of the weekend trying to get one of my old models from Max into Blender. My version of Max is too old to support the latest MSFS tools so I need to use Blender. Getting the mesh, UV, and animation across successfully was a right pain and still has to undergo corrections once in Blender. If I had a tool that could convert my existing MDLs into Gltf, I could have imported that directly and saved myself a huge amount of work and frustration.
Also, a lot of the knowledge, tips and tricks that we as developers all use was found by analysing existing assets. Such a tool would help expand our knowledge of the new sim I think.
I'm well aware of the potential for abuse of such a tool, I've had my models ripped before and the meshes sold and in one case used by a very well known developer, but I'd still welcome another tool in my virtual toolbox.
If people want to steal your work, they'll find a way regardless.
 
DaveWG said:
I've just spent most of the weekend trying to get one of my old models from Max into Blender. My version of Max is too old to support the latest MSFS tools so I need to use Blender. Getting the mesh, UV, and animation across successfully was a right pain and still has to undergo corrections once in Blender. If I had a tool that could convert my existing MDLs into Gltf, I could have imported that directly and saved myself a huge amount of work and frustration.
Also, a lot of the knowledge, tips and tricks that we as developers all use was found by analysing existing assets. Such a tool would help expand our knowledge of the new sim I think.
I'm well aware of the potential for abuse of such a tool, I've had my models ripped before and the meshes sold and in one case used by a very well known developer, but I'd still welcome another tool in my virtual toolbox.
If people want to steal your work, they'll find a way regardless.
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Contact Arno, he will consider your application and you will have such a tool.
 
When I first started developing aircraft about 20 years ago, I started because there wasn't an up-to-date version of my liking for a particular plane in FS2000, so I made one myself. If people want a plane in MSFS, then they should try making one themselves, learn what goes into it, not ripping off someone else's hard graft that takes them to 80% ready - let the original developer's rebuild or remake their products for MSFS.

I don't know why people can't be more patient.
 
DragonflightDesign said:
I would be grateful if you would respond to my observation on creating gauges. What is your take on it?
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The fact of the matter is that now most projects are not gaining momentum and do not appear in MSFS due to the lack of normal protection. About this, at the very beginning, there were discussions on the MSFS forums and here, they also related to the open format of gLTF and its protection. As stated by MS and Asobo, they pledged to specify the methods in the SDK and promised to provide protection, but as usual they have not done so until now. Therefore, in addition to studying a new SDK, making or reworking their models for a new sim, each developer is still forced to make and invent new protection, not only for their devices and code, but now also for models.

And I believe that the main reason for the absence of serious models in the sim now is precisely the lack of protection against unlawful use in all aspects, as well as the impossibility, in this regard, of compliance and reimbursement of license agreements of all project participants and users and it will take more time than reworking the model itself and the code for the sim. And then, instead of helping developers ensure the safety of their work and reduce risks, the community votes to create even bigger problems for developers and destroy their projects.
 
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KAI31 said:
And I believe that the main reason for the absence of serious models in the sim now is precisely the lack of protection against unlawful use in all aspects, as well as the impossibility, in this regard, of compliance and reimbursement of license agreements of all project participants and users and it will take more time than reworking the model itself and the code for the sim. And then, instead of helping developers ensure the safety of their work and reduce risks, the community votes to create even bigger problems for developers and destroy their projects.
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They pledged to specify protection for native MSFS development projects. Which they have done very well in response to various community tools. This tool, however, is used for FSX .mdls which is an outdated worm that has already been reverse engineered 10 times over and is easy to do so with or without this tool... I honestly wished MSFS would have just left the FSX bone to dogs instead of reviving it for legacy use. To reply to your comment earlier, I'd appreciate it if you took your emotional outcries towards me personally somewhere where else. Just because I support FSX conversions, a modern method, VR Support, Open-Source Development and aiding community Freeware development DOESN'T make me some pirate out for everybody's loot. Very emotionally charged comments towards me there, but I get it. So many people have put hundreds of hours into these ancient FSX projects and now realize they themselves have to move on to native MSFS development. It's frustrating and your on the clock trying to get it done before the community does with a FSX import. Well... better learn fast or sink because I know first hand of the new talent out there due to my community leader status in native development. The game is about to change and you're about to see payware models get real competition with Freeware models. If you're still worried about someone ripping your FSX models (With this tool or MCX) then you're in the wrong year, .mdls don't have that protection anymore and you can't blame C++ coders like evangel76, you can blame original .mdl decoders and tools that were developed during FSX's golden years. Also, if someone now days are caught using piracy, trust me, they will get called out. I mean look at the 737 Max project by Brekod3D. That was borderline but he still channeled through the right tunnels to legally do so. If you truly want to continue protecting your FSX work, you can start by converting them yourself to a better MSFS native format so it is protected by a modern standard.
 
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I'm talking about thousands of dollars invested in projects, years of study, experience and skills that cost much more than a couple of clicks in the interface. I repeat once again that the developers already have a lot of tools to transform their projects into any sim, and these tools are available to them in the legal field and subject to confidentiality and personal rights. It also discusses the creation of software that violates all licensing agreements, property rights and developer rights on their models and products of their labor. By the way, such software and its creation are prosecuted at the level of states already, and it is quite real that a person who created such a publicly available program can receive a rather serious period and a fine only for its creation. So these are not toys.

You want to prove that such a program will be useful, but I will tell you the opposite, that never a single evil deed has brought benefit and progress, it will never be possible to create something good out of the grief and suffering of other people, hurting others will never make progress and positive results.
 
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I regret to say that I don't believe you addressed my question. As a gauge developer, how do I get round the problem that Microsoft themselves supply the tools to reverse-engineer any dotNet gauges or applications?
 
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