Another textures problem

[Francois]

Help, I can't find this one either.... here's the problem:

I have collected all my (partial) textures on one sheet.
For a long stretch of building I need to repeat one texture a few times to cover it all.

HOWEVER.....

I can only apply ONE texture to a face, even if it covers only a small part.
As soon as I try to apply it 'again', now to cover the next part of the same wall, the FIRST texture just get replaced and I am back to square one.

I know I can solve it by constructing a texture that will cover the entire building in one go, but that seems to defeat the purpose and will get me a very big texture sheet.

What is wisdom !?

 

[mmann]

I don't use SketchUp but in 3ds Max if I want to texture a building then the building must have the appropriate number of segments to allow mapping a separate section of texture to the relevant polygon.

Regards, Mike Mann

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Francois:

It appears that in Sketchup, one can only apply (1) texture material per "face" in the 3d modeling phase of making an object.


One can use the Pencil Tool

to divide the wall into as many 'faces' as needed for the intended number of texture mappings

[EDIT]
NOTE: In Sketchup, it is important immediately after adding or otherwise editing faces / edges etc., to:

1.) Use the Arrow Cursor

to "select" model part and/or entire model by clicking on object 2x/3x (or dragging a 'frame' around object)

2.) Again with the Arrow Cursor

, right-click 'selected' object(s) <...then in the context menus which pop up: >

3.) Select "Intersect Faces" > "With Model".

[END_EDIT]

If the edges of the same-sized, "partial" wall textures are set up properly on the texture material sheet in advance via one's graphics app, when the materials are all applied 'adjacent' to one another on the 3D model wall, one is unlikely to notice a seam in Sketchup or in FS.


Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[Francois]

Ah yes, I experimented with that (the partializing), but it makes for more triangles of course..... interesting.

Not sure what 'segments' are, Mike, but maybe you mean the same as Gary? Dividing up a wall so it can take more than one texture?

 

[mmann]

Ah yes, I experimented with that (the partializing), but it makes for more triangles of course..... interesting.

Not sure what 'segments' are, Mike, but maybe you mean the same as Gary? Dividing up a wall so it can take more than one texture?

That sounds about right. You may be creating more triangles but you obtain a better texture in trade-off.

This again is where you, as the scenery developer, determine what level of complexity you wish to introduce to your model in order to obtain the level of appearance you desire.

Regards, Mike Mann

 

[arno]

Hi Francois,

If you want different textures on different parts of the a polygon, you will have to split it into different polygons as already mentioned.

If you want the same piece of texture repeated 3 times that is not needed however. In that case you just alter the texture mapping cover the texture 3 times (or uv mapping from 0.0 to 3.0).

 

[Sidney Schwartz]

I know of two different methods:

1. As already mentioned, divide the area needing the repeated textures into smaller sections.

2. Make a seperate, small, texture sheet just for that texture, apply it to that area and let SU tile it as necessary.

As a general strategy, I don't worry as I do with Gmax about cramming all the textures onto the fewest number of sheets. I'll usually make lots of small individual textures, and when I'm satisfied with how everything looks I'll use the Minimize Drawcall function to combine whichever textures are able to be combined into a fewer number of larger sheets. Works really nicely.

 

[scott967]

A third approach would be to create multiple faces per building facade, and then do a rendering to bitmap in SU, and use the resulting bitmap as a texture that would cover the entire side. I have played around some with a freeware plugin, SU2POV 2.5 that allows use of a freeware renderer, POV but haven't been happy with the results so far (I am more interested in placing lights to create night textures). There is a number of payware renderers out that, but not sure they would be cost-effective for hobbyists. I have a trial version of SU Podium which seems to have an audience but I'm waiting a bit to try as it's time-limited and want to make sure I'm ready to really give it a good work out before activating it. One drawback of the renderer approach is these tools are designed to allow you to apply specular, bump, reflection, and shadow details which isn't useful for us since that is done in the FSX renderer.

scott s.
.

 

[Francois]

Many thanks for all your insightful help! I managed with the 'partial face' approach, but will experiment with the other methods as well.

Not sure how to map the same texture three times..... the texture I use is on a larger sheet with other textures. How do I copy it three times, Arno? Or show me on Sunday

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Francois,

If you want different textures on different parts of the a polygon, you will have to split it into different polygons as already mentioned.

If you want the same piece of texture repeated 3 times that is not needed, however. In that case you just alter the texture mapping (to) cover the texture 3 times (or uv mapping from 0.0 to 3.0).

Hi Arno:

I'm trying to be sure I properly understood what you meant by the statements above.

Could you please clarify IIUC what you described above ?

This is my 'proposed' interpretation:

1.) Making a custom "wall" texture image in one's graphics app with a pattern and edges suitable for use with "Tiling" in Sketchup
2.) Creating a texture Material from that texture image file in Sketchup
3.) Applying that texture Material to the wall configured as only (1) face <... meaning with NO divisions into 'sub-faces'>
4.) 'Sizing' that texture Material so it "tiles" ex: 2x to cover the wall <... meaning in a "read once, write/draw multiple" operation>


Thanks for any further explanation you might offer on the above process.



BTW: By default Sketchup is already "tiling" one's texture when one first enters the texture mapping mode via the Paint Bucket.

Perhaps if one had a 'single face wall' (thus saving on extra faces and vertices etc.), one could simply map and "size" a custom texture Material that is on its "own" exclusive sheet <so there's no overlap of other nearby images on a multi-image sheet> onto the wall.

Then one uses the "Minimize Drawcall" function Sid referred to, so MCX will composite "all" mapped textures in an efficient manner ?



PS: I'm baffled by "uv mapping from 0.0 to 3.0"; is there a setting somewhere in Sketchup where one can do this via a GUI ?

I have thus far only seen this type of functionality (for manipulating U-V mapping 'numerically')... described in either non-Sketchup 3D modeling apps, or 3rd party plug-in utilities for Sketchup.


Thanks for your help with this as well.

GaryGB

 

[Sidney Schwartz]

Francois, it might be helpful if you could post a screen shot of the model in question and your texture sheet. I think I know what you're describing, but there's nothing like being able to see for one's self.

 

[arno]

Hi Gary,

I'll make some screenshots tonight to explain. The uv is the technical term, unfortunately SketchUp is hiding them. So you can't enter those coordinates directly.

As you say. If you setup the material with a size of 20 and apply it to a 40 meter wall it will tile by default.

 

[Francois]

Alright, here are the screenshots (I hope):

On the model you see #1 where I have split the large face of the entire building into smaller parts and added the brown facing with windows TWICE. The remainder of the sheet is on the rest of the wall (tiles).

At #2 I have pasted ONE part in place, and have done nothing else. That part needs to be repeated along the ledge all around the building. I can split the ledge into parts (like I did with #1), but if there's a better way I'd be interested

#3 on the texture sheet is what needs to be on the UPPER part of the building's face.... BELOW the ledge I'll need to put OTHER texture (not yet made).
That wall is one piece, the ledge is pasted IN FRONT of it basically, which is why the tiling continues on the entire wall and not only to the right of the intended parts.

Hope his makes sense.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Gary,

I'll make some screenshots tonight to explain. The uv is the technical term, unfortunately SketchUp is hiding them. So you can't enter those coordinates directly.

As you say. If you setup the material with a size of 20 and apply it to a 40 meter wall it will tile by default.

Thanks Arno; and no rush, as I know you're busy with many commitments.

GaryGB

 

[arno]

Hi Francois,

Maybe I missed the point, but if you want to tile some texture on a polygon it needs to fill the whole width of your texture sheet. So you can not pick on element of the texture and let that repeat.

 

[Francois]

Yes I found that, and understand. So I 'd need to make a 1024 wide texture for those cases where I want to 'tile'.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Francois:

I found a picture of Ketchikan FBO from the same side, and attached it as another viewpoint for illustrative purposes.

IIUC, the front 'face' of the ledge / walkway <#2> above the service vehicles etc. is the one which uses repetitive "pairs" of 'native pictogram plaques' (embossed into the concrete ?).

The front 'face' of that ledge could be "tiled" with an image texture Material strip mapped onto the front of the ledge (with that ledge configured as a single 'face', if desired).

By using a single image texture Material strip (with as few as a single R+L 'pair' of plaques if desired), one would not have any other nearby texture images as a distraction or possible overlap.


Or, since you have already prepared a image texture Material strip of 'several pairs' of plaques on a multi-image texture Material sheet, you could of course map and thereby "tile" the front 'face' of that ledge with that Material instead (...as long as no other nearby image on the sheet overlaps/shows on the ledge face).


IIUC, the concept proposed as an option here, is that Sketchup can read an image texture Material once, and then map/wrap/write/draw it 'multiple' times ("tiling") onto a selected 'face' by repeating the image in that texture Material as many times as we allow (...by 'sizing' and 'positioning' the image over that 'single' face to control how many times the image appears over the selected face).

By this method, though, we may still have to make an additional custom-sized image for our texture Material intended for tiling, at a size necessary to allow the final mapped image texture Material to display on the model... with a resulting degree of sharpness we desire.


Here's an example process to enable "tiling" in Sketchup:

1.) Map an image texture Material onto a face with the Paint Bucket

<...face now shows multiple mini-image texture Material "tiles" >

2.) With Arrow Cursor

, click to select the face with the mapped image texture Material

3.) Right-click the selected face <...then in the context menus which pop up: >

4.) Select "Texture" > "Position" < 4-pin Material Tool

opens on top of mapped Material >

5.) {Click-Hold-Drag} Green Material Pin

to size Material so only the needed number of plaques 'tile' to cover the selected face.


Regarding mapping of image texture Materials to the administrative offices overlooking the ledge <#3>, IMHO those might best be all individual faces with flipped or otherwise modded versions of an original single image texture Material to allow greater control over mapped image variation (and also with application of *_LM ("light map") versions of those Materials to provide night lighting in the windows.

Yup, that adds faces/polys and edges/vertices to the model; but there's another way to control complexity of one's finished model.


Set up a 'fully centered' model view, then screen capture Sketchup's work area < to a non-lossy image file format > ...via:

EDITED (...again!)
1.) Sketchup Main Menu > View > un-check "all" items in the top menu level

2.) Main Menu > View > Edge Style > un-check "Edges" and all other items in that menu level

3.) Main Menu > View > Face Style > select "Shaded With Textures"

4.) Main Menu > Camera > select "Perspective"

5.) Main Menu > Camera > Standard Views > select desired [Front/Back/Left/Right] "side"

6.) Zoom in and center on model to fill the screen; now capture that screen !

7.) Copy that model under a new name, then 'edit' that building side to reduce faces to (1) where mapped by (1) Material.

END_EDIT



BTW: Perhaps to further achieve a "suspension of disbelief" conducive to greater "immersiveness" in FS... one can:

Open that captured Sketchup model image in a graphics app to apply global and/or area sharpening, modify global Saturation/Color Balance/Brightness/Contrast/Intensity/Luminance/Gamma etc.

Also in a graphics app, add general soft "sky-light shadows" under ledges/overhangs/roofs/eaves etc. by applying "negative brightness"/darkening ...with that app's appropriate tool, set for higher resulting transparency and feathering.

Alternatively, use a photoreal rendering plug-in (ex: "V-Ray for Sketchup", "SU Podium" etc.) to perform some or all the graphical mods to the image texture above before committing it to a mapped Material.


Possibly one might also apply some (subtle !) surface detailing such as "bump-mapping" via a photoreal or other rendering plug-in.

Doing the latter in Sketchup or GMAX with output to a finished rendering that is then captured into a "flat" 1-piece texture image to be mapped as above would, IMHO, be preferable to burdening the FS rendering engine to do this via a complex MDL, as such functions are "computationally expensive" to FPS <...and often look "over-done" anyway>.

The idea, therefore, might be creating a mostly pre-rendered 1-piece texture with details "baked" into it before applied to the model in Sketchup <...dare I call this technique which has actually been around for years: "Text 'Yer Flow" ©®™℠ ? >.


Finally, create 1024 x 1024 pixel max size image texture Material sheet(s) from that file, and map onto one's 'edited' model.


IIUC, one could then use the MCX "Minimize Drawcalls" function so MCX composites "all" mapped textures in an efficient manner ?

And, IIUC, in MCX "Attached Object Editor" one can implement *_LM.dds ("light map") separate, conditionally-displayed versions of mapped image texture Materials to provide optimal night lighting on the building / in the windows via "darkened and/or lighted" copies of ones output texture files (...to be included in the project's active FS scenery library area location \Texture folder paired with \Scenery folder).


NOTE: IIUC, when exporting the finished Sketchup MDL into FS via MCX, one may wish also to use MDL Tweaker II to "Remove shadow" during conversion of the Sketchup model into a FS MDL, as this is reportedly an FPS-killer (...and bump-mapping is too).

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/wiki/index.php?title=MDL_Tweaker_II

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=17


Hope these ideas might help as you contemplate your options !

GaryGB

 

[Francois]

Great stuff Gary, although I lost you after the second sentence.....




Kidding!!

The idea to screencapture the finished model and use that capture as a new 1024x1024 texture source is interesting. Of course I need to get the model totally finished first (or at least one side of it).

I am wondering what it may do to the quality though, although I work with png files, so no loss through jpg issues. It may just work

I'll also look at TweakMDL once I am a bit further down the path. Looks interesting indeed... Haven't dared look at bump mapping yet and have just recently understood how to do the nightlighting

You would think one would know more of all this after 35 years tinkering with flightsim uh? Grrrr.....

 

[GaryGB]

Great stuff Gary, although I lost you after the second sentence.....



Kidding!!

<...Heh-Heh-Heh...> Ya' had me goin' there for a second !

The idea to screen capture the finished model and use that capture as a new 1024x1024 texture source is interesting. Of course I need to get the model totally finished first (or at least one side of it).

I am wondering what it may do to the quality though, although I work with *.png files, so no loss through *.jpg issues. It may just work

Indeed, that is a larger FBO which might merit all the extra detail and sharpness through some extra faces, and bigger / tiled texture maps to keep it looking good.


IIRC, Arno has stated in the past that generally scenery objects (especially when displayed in an otherwise low object density area ?) that come in under 10,000 on the vertex count are manageable on most FSX computer systems.


Hope that works out in the long haul... it's off to a great start !

You would think one would know more of all this after 35 years tinkering with flightsim uh?

After being "the guy who wears a tie" (around his neck), you're welcome among the rest of us guys... who wear ties on their heads !


PS: If you (or other readers here) take a break, check out this website; no wonder folks fall in love with flying that part of the PNW !

http://www.toandos.com/

http://www.toandos.com/Alaska20101.html

http://www.toandos.com/AlaskaAgain1.html


Regards,

GaryGB

 

[Sidney Schwartz]

I hope no one is offended if I suggest a much simpler approach. Pic 1 is the texture sheet I created. It has only the image I'm using for this example, but let's assume it also has other images to be used on other parts of the building. Top of pic two is the building.

1. Material created using the texture sheet is applied to the trim area and sized so that the height of the trim image fits the trim area and is flush with the left edge of the building.

2. A vertical line is drawn at the edge of the leftmost texture image, creating a new face the exact size of the image.

3. Enter move mode and use Ctrl key to create and move a copy of the section to the right of the first section.

4. Repeat step 3 until the trim section is filled. Voila.

This allows you to use a smaller texture sheet, and the impact of the few additional faces/triangles created is probably next to nil.