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Autogen issue -- kind of

T

toprob

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1,134
I feel a bit cheeky asking this here, but maybe someone can help.

Someone has uploaded a freeware Auckland photo scenery which includes the autogen from my payware Real NZ Supercity. I've been working for a couple of days trying to have this taken off all the library sites, but the 'author' is fighting back, and has managed to convince Simviation that it is his.

Simviation have asked for 'authoritative' proof that this is my work. Simviation are yet to get back with an idea of what they would accept as proof, but in the meantime I need to do something.

What I want is an autogen expert, someone accepted as such by the community here, to take a look at these two sceneries, and supply a kind of 'forensic' report, mainly on the likelihood that one of them is derivative.

I would imagine that this wouldn't take too long, but some work would be involved, of course. If payment was required, I'd be happy to discuss it, but don't expect a CSI hourly rate:)

I would supply a working copy of my Supercity for the comparison, and supply a link to the other version.

Since transparency is important here, I'd be happier if this was discussed openly here if there is any discussion warranted.

Thanks.

Robin Corn
 
Sorry to hear about this, Robin. Your reputation in the community is well known and well respected.

Simple thing I would work from is file dates, yours and his. If his are the same as yours, hard to argue. If his are newer than yours, that works in your favor also. There are simple utilities to change all the date tags on files. I used one to set all my release files dates to a uniform date and time.

What's in the files, yours and his are key. Especially if yours are dated before his release! Specific file screen grabs showing the exact annotation at the same location becomes a fingerprint, of sorts. Once is a coincidence, twice a curiosity, more than that is not a stroke of luck.

I'd be inclined to start building proof based upon screen grabs from inside the game and inside the annotator. Each shot at the same exact location. The game shot shows the visuals providing for same date, time, direction and elevation. The Annotator shot shows each piece of autogen accounted for, be it a tree or building. If more than two are an exact match, it's kind of hard to ignore that evidence.

I'm off to Simviation to see just who might have done such a thing. :mad:
 
Hi Robin,

I've been in those kinds of situations before so I can relate.

Autogen in the sim can look very similar even if placed with different .agn files. However, I've seen your Annotator screenshots at - http://nzff.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=13131&st=20&start=20 - and they prove to me that they are one and the same, at least for the shown area.

If you could prepare a few more of those screenshot comparisons throughout the coverage area I'd be happy to send an email to Simviation or any other place stating that they cannot have been done by two different authors.

It's quite amazing that people often don't realize how unique spatial files are, vector or raster. There's a greater likelihood of winning the lotto jackpot three times in a row than even a small section of autogen annotation boxes ending up being the same by chance.

Cheers, Holger
 
Hi Robin.

This is truly absurd. The same creator could not identically produce the same annotator footprint for a tile. It's just not possible. The rectangles are hand-drawn. It would take longer to try to hand copy such a file than it would to just draw it from scratch.

It's not like mesh or photoreal, where an identical source could be reproduced by a similar INF->resample. Here the source is the hand-drawn rectangles. They're not automatically made from source data.

AVSIM is generally very good about removing such files. I think Flightsim.com is OK too.

I really don't know about Simviation... my only run-in with them has been their world mesh set that is defective. It can cause degradation of FS2004, yet they refuse to get rid of it, even when shown the exact effect from screenshots and in TMFViewer! So I can attest there is an air of stubborness or arrogance concerning their hosting of files.

I really would be surprised if they remove the copied NZ files. And it doesn't seem Mr. Walker will ask to have them removed, or replaced with an autogen-less set. To volunteer to remove them would now verify his plagiarism... even though it would be the right thing to do.

Very sad that popular file hosts in our community are made into pirate sites by this type of thing. I've taken to hosting my own files since the crashes at AVSIM and the Simouthouse.

Dick
 
Hi Robin:

I'm wondering if this might help in performing a "butt-kicking comparative analysis" of your *an.AGN files with those 'other' *an.AGN files in question: :idea:

1.) Copy those 'other' *an.AGN files into an empty "work" folder

a.) Copy "AgnDump.exe" into that same work folder from:

[FSX SDK install path]\SDK\Environment Kit\Autogen SDK\

b.) Drag-N'-Drop each *an.AGN file in question onto AgnDump.exe



2.) Copy your *an.AGN files into an empty "work" folder

a.) Copy "AgnDump.exe" into that same work folder from:

[FSX SDK install path]\SDK\Environment Kit\Autogen SDK\

b.) Drag-N'-Drop each *an.AGN file in question onto AgnDump.exe


NOTE: AgnDump.exe output will be specially formatted XML code with "X-Y coordinates" (IIUC, these are relative to a fixed LAT/LON location)

Not surprisingly, I have yet to find any mention about the existence or function of AgnDump.exe in the FSX SDK "documentation". :rolleyes:



3.) Using software such as the very powerful "Beyond Compare" (THE quintessential "compare" utility IMHO): :p

http://www.scootersoftware.com/moreinfo.php?zz=moreinfo_compare

a.) Compare your *an.XML output files with the corresponding named 'other' *an.XML output files in question.

b.) Consider a more complex comparative analysis using other options under Beyond Compare's Session > Compare Files menu choices




FYI: There is also a "Picture Compare" option which might make the task of comparing BMP or JPG screenies from Annotator much easier;

Beyond Compare's Help > Index > "Picture Compare" section explains this interesting feature



BTW: IIRC, all Beyond Compare modes can output reports saved to files and/or printer. ;)



Hope this helps ! :)

GaryGB
 
Last edited:
Thanks, guys, some great suggestions.

Holger -- thanks for the offer, but after receiving an email from Flightsim.com, it seems that they have been told that these screenshots are made up, in an attempt to stifle any competition. However, they did say that the author had asked that this file be removed from Flightsim.com, 'as it's not worth the hassle.' So Flightsim.com now believe that I harassed the author into removing his work.

I would imagine that Simviation received similar allegations from the 'author'.

So any further proof from me would not serve much purpose, since I could be making it all up. Unless Simviation come back with an idea of what they would accept as proof, I have decided to take a different tack, and explore a couple of other areas which have cropped up from all this messing around.

I truly believe that this chap uploaded my scenery simply to get this result, where he can convince people that I will cheat to squash any competition.

Exciting stuff! Who would have thought a hobby could grow into so much intrigue...

The only problem is that although he'll fade away this time, he'll be back in a month with another name, and another scheme.
 
GaryGB said:
Hi Robin:

I'm wondering if this might help in performing a "butt-kicking comparative analysis" of your *an.AGN files with those 'other' *an.AGN files in question: :idea:
Click to expand...

Actually, a brilliant idea, I didn't have a clue you could do that...
I've run a few through my own file comparison tool (Winmerge) and it is exactly as I suspected -- the same byte size, the same entries, but different co-ordinates. Somebody has shifted all the autogen very slightly.

Just thought I'd say thanks for another great idea via FSDeveloper.
 
NoNewMessages said:
Your reputation in the community is well known and well respected.
Click to expand...

Quoting one's self may not be appropriate, but hey!

Within the development community you are well respected, IMO.

Within the development community Simviation and Flightsim/FS Pilot Shop carry a different view from many, my self included.

Though it may not mean much, Mr. Walker has earned a special place of honor. And he and his website/forums will be watched, just so he doesn't make any more claims of fame that are really the efforts of others.
 
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