• Which the release of FS2020 we see an explosition of activity on the forun and of course we are very happy to see this. But having all questions about FS2020 in one forum becomes a bit messy. So therefore we would like to ask you all to use the following guidelines when posting your questions:

    • Tag FS2020 specific questions with the MSFS2020 tag.
    • Questions about making 3D assets can be posted in the 3D asset design forum. Either post them in the subforum of the modelling tool you use or in the general forum if they are general.
    • Questions about aircraft design can be posted in the Aircraft design forum
    • Questions about airport design can be posted in the FS2020 airport design forum. Once airport development tools have been updated for FS2020 you can post tool speciifc questions in the subforums of those tools as well of course.
    • Questions about terrain design can be posted in the FS2020 terrain design forum.
    • Questions about SimConnect can be posted in the SimConnect forum.

    Any other question that is not specific to an aspect of development or tool can be posted in the General chat forum.

    By following these guidelines we make sure that the forums remain easy to read for everybody and also that the right people can find your post to answer it.

FSX plumbing LDZD

robystar

robystar

Messages
5,214
Hoi,

I am working (it is raining for a change:() on an airport in Croatia (Zadar, LDZD) which has never, AFAIK, been made by anyone for FSX and later, nor decently for FS9.
I now know why! The default is full of mistakes in the terrain (both in FS9 and FSX) with water where it should not be and land where it should not be and shorelines that do not correspond, etc.).
As two years ago I spent some nice days over there, I wanted to get this airport (and the region around it because there is no Zadar city to be found in FS) featured as it should in FSX.
And doing the 'afcad' I stumbled on the fact that, in order to do it right, I had to plumb the airport.
That worked except for rwy 04/22 where I do not know how to avoid that landed planes that taxi back to the parking, collide with incoming planes.
I attach my ad4 so that you can have an idea what it looks like (Do not compile the gp poly because I have not included the textures).
I have photoreal background so do not look too closely to the landclass either.
Focus on the taxiway layout as that is what I am asking some help for. The rest is far from ready yet.
Thanks beforehand for some helpful input.

PS: If you think it looks too complicated just place the taxi points further outward.
PS2: another problem was to avoid planes from back tracking on the runway. That is also why it got a bit more complicated:).
PS3: developing for FS is the cheapest way to overcome the gap between the working and salaried life and the age at which you get to profit from your pension! You do not go out so often and you do not care, therefore spend less money, use your car less and above all you get in touch with some interesting people:cool:.
PS4 (bumped for editing Gary would say): I do not expect an answer soon because you will need some time to figure it out if you (ueberhaupt) can.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Sorry Roby, I have just found some time to look at it.

I'll let you know how I get on.
 
No problem, George, it is more complicated than you would think at first sight.
In the meantime: forget about trying to change the taxi paths to runway center lines as that does not work off the runway (that was just a foolish idea of mine but as long as you have not tried it, you never know).
I am still trying to figure out why ATC says that the AI is 'taxiing in' although it is still on the runway.
I also put the first hold short after landing, on the return paths from rwy22, just before the first parking spots but I still have to find out if that solves the problem for the rwy22 landing AI to break off their landing or not.
There are two problems:
1. rwy22 landed aircraft taxiing back to their parking spots encounter landing aircraft when they are still on the runway;
2. rwy22 landed aircraft taxiing back to their parking spots encounter AI going to the runway for take off.
It is a challenge, that is for sure but a nice exercise in finding out how the AI engine and other stuff works.
 
The first thing I have done is to remove all landclass, GP polys and taxiways (replacing them with paths).

I see that you have also changed the elevation, so I need to determine a new elevavation which suits my mesh.
 
I have the default mesh but I probably forgot to attach the ALT.bgl?
No, not true, because if you compile, ADE will make the alt.bgl.
I have no taxiways, only taxi paths.
 
collision.jpg
Sorry, you are right.
I had changed the altitude first because some info I got said it was at a lower altitude. Then the airport website itself said 88 meters, so I changed it back.
Here is a nice example of what the problem is: German Wings has landed and is taxiing back to the aprons. But a Croatia airlines Dash 8 is taxiing to its start position and meets the other one. Neither stops and there is no room to divert. Either the German Wings should wait where it goes on the runway again to taxi back or the Croatia Airlines should wait until German Wings has reached its parking.
Signing off for the day now.
Good night for later on.
 
Last edited:
If you use the plumbing method on a runway with a single entry, the only way you can prevent aircraft ghosting through each other is by carefully arranging your flightplan times so that aircraft do not meet head-on..

The problem is that, so far as ATC is concerned, the aircraft taxiing-in and the aircraft taxiing-out are on different (superimposed) taxiways.

Preventing back-tracking is a different problem, This is achieved with judicious breaks in the runway centre-line together with extra taxi-paths.
 
Morning George,

I was already afraid you would say that.
Back tracking was not the problem as you can see.
I thought that as ATC has not cleared the AI from the runway, no other aircraft would be able to land nor enter the runway.
And I understood that ATC clears the runway only when the landed AI has reached the first hold short? but that seemingly is not the case?
Update after checking SID/STARS: no landings on R22 !!!
Therefore one problem solved but another appearing. Wondering how to allow departures from R22 and R04 but stopping AI from landing on R22.
Another problem: Aug 2015 bulletin says taxiways BCDEF closed for civil aviation.
 
Last edited:
Sure, it makes it easier for 14/32 but how do I " allow departures from R22 and R04 but stopping AI from landing on R22"? Adding the missing ILS did not help either.
I attach a chart
 

Attachments

In a word, you can't. One can only close a runway for both take-off and landing.
 
Well, "I was already afraid you would say that":(!
What do you think best? Delete all apron links to 04/22 and make them in an overlay GA airport (the GA AI going to the parking closest to the runway where there are no parking spots yet)?
In the meantime I got rid of the stupid water polygons all over the place where they should not be and of course landed up with a lot of landclass.
And in spite of your probably thinking I am crazy, I am redoing the water in ADE.
Boy, oh boy, there is a heck of of shorelines and water to be replaced (It sure looks like that part of the world was done when the Aces guys already knew they were going to be let off or did not have time to do it right).
However.
But you did not reply to yhis question:
" I understood that ATC clears the runway only when the landed AI has reached the first hold short? but that seemingly is not the case?".
But maybe that is something for Jim Vile to explain if he listens in?
 
You can close runways for either takeoff *or* landing, but you must do it for BOTH ends of the runway. One end closings are usually not honored, although you can help that by deleting the Start Location of the end you don't want used, but then we are back to George's situation where it affects both takeoffs AND landings...
 
robystar said:
Morning George,


snip --------------------

I thought that as ATC has not cleared the AI from the runway, no other aircraft would be able to land nor enter the runway.
And I understood that ATC clears the runway only when the landed AI has reached the first hold short? but that seemingly is not the case?
Click to expand...

The problem occurs when a user or AI Plane lands and one of the main gear wheels (actually contact points) either leave the runway on a turn around or the plane lands short of the runway. Tower tells the plane to contact ground (since it left the runway texture or landed before the runway texture) which at that point the runway is unlocked for the next departure or the arrival if another plane is on short final.

The 2 planes will taxi through each other since ATC Tower thinks the plane landing has left the runway and is on a taxiway.
 
Thanks for explaining. Interesting.
If I understand correctly the hold short does not play a role here?
I know that for instance in the case of a 0 width runway on an aircraft carrier, a 0 width center line will fool ATC in thinking the AI is still on the runway although it is either already in the air or has left the runway and so does not give clearance for the next AI. If the center line is made wide enough to match the contact points of the wheels, ATC does give clearance.
 
Last edited:
Yes, it all has to do with the wheels in contact with the actual runway, not the hold short node in this case.
 
Thank you Tom.
I guess I will have to take out the 04/22 rwy and make it in a seperate overlay GA airport where no plumbing is necessary as private AC are allowed to land VOC-wise on 22 as well.
And just for the record: when done, it will be freeware because when payware, I would not be worthwhile as I would have to give you guys so big a share in the proceeds that I would end up with nothing at all anyway:D.

PS: the last sentence was supposed to be a PS:).
 
Adding a little more to Tom's post

The arrival hold short is used for 2 purposes

1. The airplane must cross over the hold short and stop, then it will change freq's if the airport has a ground channel
2. When the plane crosses over the hold short the assigned parking spot is confirmed which was assigned when taxing on the runway. In some cases ATC will change the parking spot at the hold short.

The working side of the hold short is the opposite side (furthest side) from the runway regardless of departing or arriving

The hold short does not have any code for unlocking the runway. That is in the gear contact points and runway texture.
 
Hi Jim,

Thanks for wrecking your brain with this.
But (as always): "1. The airplane must cross over the hold short and stop, then it will change freq's if the airport has a ground channel".
Well, I have left out the hold short at the end of rwy 22 and still frequency change occurs when the AI leaves the rwy. I thought I could inflence the behavior by putting the arrival hold short before the rwy22 start (on the return taxiways).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top