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Licensing for editing sat imagery

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I think it is clear that for selling addons which contain custom sat imagery, you must buy the imagery with a license to be able to sell it.
But what happens when you just want to make edits / improvements to the existing bing maps tiles? Let's say to remove ships from the images in order to replace them with actual models, to enhance quality, or to remove shadows etc.
I guess the fact the fs2020 uses bing maps doesn't mean that we can edit these and sell our product? Or is this a fair use?
Anyone knows what is the approach here?

thank you
 
Using Bing imagery, or any other source, without permission is a copyright violation, and you could be sued. But I have seen the use of polygons with texturing that can remove shadows, clouds or images of planes, ships, cars... Some patching imagery could be made from free government sources. These only need small areas generally. Asobo may need some time to work out problems with multiple aerial imagery in areas. Right now they don't show.

In airports, some people are using aprons to remove errors in the imagery... what we really need is the ability to place a UV textured polygon wherever we like.
 
Your best source is through Global Mapper's online map system or using government WMS or REST servers where it's public domain. If it's the USA you can look up USGS data, NRCS Data Gateway, or even the USA NAIP imagery program.

You could also invest in a license for ArcGIS and access the World Imagery layer as well, and it's all above board. I've been using NAIP imagery for the USA wide FSX/P3D photoscenery (same data Megascenery Earth started using).

Beware though that MSFS can only handle compiling very small areas at Zoom 20, it seems to choke beyond anything airport size.
 
Beware though that MSFS can only handle compiling very small areas at Zoom 20, it seems to choke beyond anything airport size.

You just answered a question on an issue I was having myself. I had the tiles generated, but the compiler went into an endless eat up all my HD space loop.
Hence, it was generating an endless file in what appeared to be a stuck loop, after it got to 600 GB, I stopped it.

Oh and I only tried importing 2-4 miles around the airport, so probably what, maybe the size of even only an 1/8th of an Ortho4XP sized tile, the compiler totally choked up.

Well, it looks like custom aerial imagery is just not ready for this sim, now people are saying the game is crashing with custom aerials (but could be some issue that triggers it, no idea).
So in a way I am glad for now I am holding off on doing my own aerial replacement.
 
Using Bing imagery, or any other source, without permission is a copyright violation, and you could be sued. But I have seen the use of polygons with texturing that can remove shadows, clouds or images of planes, ships, cars... Some patching imagery could be made from free government sources. These only need small areas generally. Asobo may need some time to work out problems with multiple aerial imagery in areas. Right now they don't show.

In airports, some people are using aprons to remove errors in the imagery... what we really need is the ability to place a UV textured polygon wherever we like.

You can use ground polys from Blender and use it on the sim.
 
While we are at it... can I just expand a bit my initial question, and ask this:

Are we free to recreate (3d models, textures) anything from the real world?
For example if i were to create the Eiffel tower or a famous building or whatever, could this require a permission of some sort? Or it is valid to do so just because you are recreating what you see? Like a painting lets say :)
 
It's generally ok, but that's a complicated international law question that your asking in a developer forum, and it varies by country. For the US, it generally falls under the same laws as fair use and educational copyrights, similar to if you were designing an encyclopedia. Obviously, if you were building a Wiki page or an encyclopedia, then they cannot expect you to worry about copyrights of every image or everything you mention. In the end though, as with most law in trademark and copyright, it's rarely straight forward, and it can generally go either way depending on the interpretation of a court.

I am not a lawyer, but that is just my basic understanding. The question is what would they have to gain by coming after you.

Also, they generally would have to prove damages when it comes to educational copyright violations, such as did you use their logo or trademarks in a way that was disparaging. In most cases, you are giving them free advertising and only helping their revenue, so it makes for a difficult legal argument. Most legal establishments would not see it very favorable for a large company going after an individual without first sending a Cease & Desist. That said, there are judges in the legal system that only do the bidding of the giant corporate power players, and that stuff is really bad in patent law (hence patent law is full of crooked practices as we saw with Xplane / Austin Meyer's battles).

So there is no straight forward answer, but they really don't have anything to gain unless you were making millions, that's when they would start coming after you. So Microsoft might have to worry, but smaller entities with no real sales, what can they even do, why would they bother. It's possible, but very unlikely. Even Microsoft can create landmarks without any issues, but they probably have to be more careful about how they use those logos and unique traits in the landmarks. Where a big company might have legal boundary issues is if they use their logos and trademarks in a way to bump their sales in some proprietary means (whatever that would be might be a complicated argument), but for all the rest of us, there isn't that much to worry about. If someone sends a cease & desist, you stop and then move on.
 
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Disney used to be very aggressive about guarding their 'rights'. Money was no object for them. Quite a few small businesses were ruined by their legal shenanigans.
 
Were any of them in education or simulation though?

I read some of those lawsuits just now, and some of the violations were really blatant, and even then Disney did not always win. Like people selling costumes of Mickey Mouse duplicates, it appears Disney "mostly" lost that one, and that seems a lot more blatant than using it in a simulator. Unless your at least Orbx size or bigger, I probably wouldn't worry too much and even then just tell them you'll stop doing it and haven't made any profit, they'll likely drop it right there. You might not want to advertise their logo on your product's front-page marketing though, that could draw attention.

For some company selling costumes or something, they were making money off their likeness for 20+ years, that's a lot of revenue on a trademark, for a flight simulation, maybe if you were selling a "Disney Pack" of buildings, but who knows, even then I kind of wonder if they'd bother (anything is possible).
 
Even wining a lawsuit can bankrupt you. Most small developers couldn't even afford the lawyer. The point is this: a copyright infringement litigation can crush you financially. Common sense dictates that you steer clear of copyright infringement possibilities. In most cases, if you are not aware of the problem, and the corporation informs you, you need to quickly try to remove the problem.
 
I agree caution is common sense, and noted that it's not cut and dry. Form an LLC is safer, you'll be protected personally and they cannot bankrupt you personally.

Optimally, you model the buildings and leave the logos off is safest, but I would be cautious with things like Disney, as you noted they are aggressive, but it also makes sense why they are that way. They make a ton of money selling licenses and toys and stuff, so I'm still not entirely sure that I would worry that much, but its up to each individual as to where to draw the line.

Flight Sims are borderline considered mapping applications and education.
 
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I'm not a lawyer. When you get sued, hire a lawyer. Or hide somewhere safe.

For aerial imagery, almost everything on the USGS website is public domain. Do whatever you want with it. The resolution is not that good, although it is at least as good as a lot of Bing aerials, which on the whole are pretty awful. I think (I DON'T know) that Orbx MAY have used some USGS stuff for SOME their sceneries. You can use it. It's not great close to the ground around airports and such, has some ugly color mismatches, some cloud cover, but it's free, legal to sell and gives a passable result. Check out https://earthexplorer.usgs.gov. Other parts of the world may have their own government funded sources that are free and public domain.

Pretty much anything else (Google, Bing, etc.) is considered intellectual property. If you download and use yourself they would never know. If you build a package and give it away, technically you're giving something away that the recipient could get for free themselves from the same source. Unless you modify the imagery. That is a derived work. Different set of rules and technically a violation of Googles TOS, but still probably not going to get you sued.

Build a package using Google imagery and sell it and you have violated the terms of service that Google et al sets out for their stuff. Will they tell you to cease and desist? Quite possibly. Will they sue? Probably not, unless you're the guy they decide to make an example of, which would not be fun. However, you will almost certainly only be sued if you ignore their cease and desist order. They won't tell you to cease and desist unless that is what they want you to do and they won't let you keep using their stuff after they have told you not to. If they tell you to stop using their stuff, stop using their stuff. If you want to create and sell scenery using aerial imagery, buy the imagery and expect it to be very, very expensive. A license to sell imagery for 2 miles around LAX could easily cost $10,000. You have to sell a lot of scenery to cover that.

With regard to corporate logos on buildings: If I can see it from any place where I can legally be, I have an absolute right to photograph it and publish that photograph anywhere I choose for public interest. That is called fair use. Consider the plane-spotting websites (airliners.net, etc.) If the corporate logos on the airplanes were somehow 'private' those sites couldn't exist, and in any event the photographs themselves are the intellectual property of the photographer, not the airline whose logo is depicted. The photographer has the absolute right to sell, for profit, his photograph of an airplane bearing a corporate logo. I think the principle here is if you don't want people to photograph your logo then don't put the logo where it can be seen in public, which rather defeats the point of having a logo. Further, if I can create and sell an airplane livery for MSFS bearing an airline or aircraft manufacturer corporate logo (as has happened countless times) how then can doing the same with a building be considered manifestly different. Either both are permitted or neither is permitted, but it isn't clear that selling airline liveries for simulators is, in fact, permitted. This has not been tested in court as AFAIK. Certainly it's been going on for decades and there is a legal argument that any airline that doesn't want it's logo used in this way has had ample opportunity to do something about it. At this point it is impossible to stop it as there are thousands (or more) liveries in the sim market, circulating for free and as payware, on countless servers in many different countries. Good luck to any corporation who thinks they can stop that. Typically, provided your use of the logo is not derogatory to the corporation they aren't going to make a fight of it.

In addition to all of this there is the notion of context. I can photograph an airliner and publish that photograph online for public interest and there isn't much the airline can do about it. However, if I use that same photograph in an advertisement for a product then that is a whole different set of laws. If I am Airbus I can say in an advertisement that Airbus is better than Boeing, but I'll get sued if I use a Boeing logo in that advertisement. A news story comparing Airbus to Boeing can use both corporate logos without fear of lawsuit, even if they say unflattering things about both companies.

My own approach to all of this is that I stay away from anything Google, Bing, etc. for aerial imagery. It isn't worth the risk. Who wants to put six months work into a project only to be told you can't sell it or even give it away?

For a building texture, with or without logos, if it is downloaded then there is a photographer somewhere (professional or amateur) who owns that intellectual property. Publishing a photograph to a website doesn't confer any rights to anyone who downloads the photo to modify or sell it. That is why there are licenses such as the Creative Commons and so forth. If you don't have specific written permission to use it then technically you shouldn't use it. Would using a downloaded photograph get you sued? Not likely unless you use something that is clearly the property of a professional photographer and even then they are more likely to ask for a licensing fee than sue you. In fact, they would most likely prefer you keep using their images and pay the fee - that way they get some revenue from it. It costs them money to sue as well.

If you took the photograph yourself it is yours to do with pretty much whatever you want, with consideration of the restriction in use for advertising purposes and even that can often be a tough fight for a corporation. For example, if I photograph a city skyline that happens to include a Microsoft logo on a building and I use it to advertise air fresheners, it would be tough for Microsoft to make me stop using it. However, Microsoft has a tad more money than I do and their attempt to make me stop would bankrupt me, win or lose.

The sim uses the names and logos of existing corporations (Airbus, Boeing, Cessna, etc.) almost certainly by arrangement with those corporations. Asobo have been careful not to use other corporate names and logos in scenery (check out the Alaska hangar at SeaTac) not, I suspect, because they think they can't use those logos but just to avoid any hassle. The airline where I work jealously guard the company logo, but if someone used it in MSFS (someone already has) they would almost certainly choose to ignore it provided the use was benign. However, if the publisher asked permission they would most likely be told no, you can't use it that way.

Tricky old world, innit?
 
I'm going to close this thread. A bit of warning... FSDeveloper does not advocate the violation of copyrights or EULAs, and we would expect our members to likewise advocate the respect of others' property.
 
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