• Which the release of FS2020 we see an explosition of activity on the forun and of course we are very happy to see this. But having all questions about FS2020 in one forum becomes a bit messy. So therefore we would like to ask you all to use the following guidelines when posting your questions:

    • Tag FS2020 specific questions with the MSFS2020 tag.
    • Questions about making 3D assets can be posted in the 3D asset design forum. Either post them in the subforum of the modelling tool you use or in the general forum if they are general.
    • Questions about aircraft design can be posted in the Aircraft design forum
    • Questions about airport design can be posted in the FS2020 airport design forum. Once airport development tools have been updated for FS2020 you can post tool speciifc questions in the subforums of those tools as well of course.
    • Questions about terrain design can be posted in the FS2020 terrain design forum.
    • Questions about SimConnect can be posted in the SimConnect forum.

    Any other question that is not specific to an aspect of development or tool can be posted in the General chat forum.

    By following these guidelines we make sure that the forums remain easy to read for everybody and also that the right people can find your post to answer it.

Depicting Parking Spaces in ADE

Messages
255
Country
unitedstates
Jon, I love that ADE is showing the taxiway signs too, the only thing I had really wished for in AFCAD.

I have a question about the parking circles. What is there size based on? Is it on the half-wingspan value that FSX uses doubled and then made into a circle? What are you're plans regarding the generic parking selections (aka Reggie's post at http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4731)? Hopefully the community can get together on a standard seeing as AFCAD replacements are already in development and the info is needed.
 
Hi, Phantoms

I have a question about the parking circles. What is there size based on? Is it on the half-wingspan value that FSX uses doubled and then made into a circle?

The parking circle should be seen as a symbol and not representing something in scale, in my opinion. The only function of those big circles are to cover important visual information on the area.

All parkings could be represented by the same symbol and show a label with their data on mouse over.

Best regards,

José
 
I have a question about the parking circles. What is there size based on? Is it on the half-wingspan value that FSX uses doubled and then made into a circle? What are you're plans regarding the generic parking selections (aka Reggie's post at http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4731)? Hopefully the community can get together on a standard seeing as AFCAD replacements are already in development and the info is needed

Circle size is based on the information supplied in the Bgl file - that is radius. AFCAD allows the setting of Radius and I planned to do it the same way. Having said that I would be vvery happy to implement a standard agreed by the community for setting them.
 
Circle size

Hi, Jon

Circle size is based on the information supplied in the Bgl file - that is radius. AFCAD allows the setting of Radius and I planned to do it the same way. Having said that I would be vvery happy to implement a standard agreed by the community for setting them.

I exposed my idea about representing parkings size in my last post, but I will repeat here. In drawing, the symbols or sign could show information by a label or a color. Those big circles in AFCAD some times are covering important information on the aircraft position, including the "T" at the parking that indicates the heading of the airplane. In AFCAD there is a function to hide the parking circles to allow visualizing it. But when that function is on, one cannot edit. I think that a little circle would avoid that little problem.

Kind regards,

José
 
Hi Jose

ADE has a function to turn them off as well. Also the indicator for the direction of the parking spot is on the green circle. I understand what you are saying - would an option to minimize them (say down to the size of a taxi point) rather than turning them off help?
 
Parking size, yet

Hi, Jon

I understand what you are saying - would an option to minimize them (say down to the size of a taxi point) rather than turning them off help?

I think it's ok.

With all respects to others opinion, I do not believe FSX will obey parking size because airplane are of many proportions. We can see wing span greater than length and the contrary too. So, the radius is an indication but not an absolute value to limit airplane's parking. Besides, the plane need space to make turns, when not pushed back. The responsibility to create space between parkings should be left to the people drawing the are and not to the program.

Kind Regards,

José
 
So, the radius is an indication but not an absolute value to limit airplane's parking.

All the testing I've done shows radius continues to be the primary determinant in parking.

It has been an absolute limit to parking.

An aircraft with a wingspan of 111 ft 6 inches (111.50) will park in a 17M parking spot, but an aircraft with a wingspan value of 111 ft 7 inches (111.58) will not - it will be deleted from the airport upon landing is a larger spot is not available.

Of course people can set the determiant value of the aircraft so that it differs in size from the visual model in FS.

But a primary value of displaying the parking spot size is to allow people to properly space their parking positions to allow for clearance between aircraft.

There is a lot of 'history' to overcome with overlapping parking circles being a common practice in the past.
 
But a primary value of displaying the parking spot size is to allow people to properly space their parking positions to allow for clearance between aircraft.
I agree totally, but they need to be displayed such that the underlying nodes/taxiways are visible.
 
Circle size is based on the information supplied in the Bgl file - that is radius. AFCAD allows the setting of Radius and I planned to do it the same way. Having said that I would be vvery happy to implement a standard agreed by the community for setting them.


By 'standard', do you mean, for example, if a user selects "GATE_SMALL" as the type of spot, then that spot will default to a certain meter radius circle?

AFCAD, for instance, gave a 31.0m circle if you selected GATE_SMALL. 38.0m if you selected GATE_MEDIUM.

So I assume ADE will have a default value for each size spot?
 
So I assume ADE will have a default value for each size spot?

FSX has the following default parking spot values:

FUEL - 16M
VEHICLE - 5M
GATE_SMALL - 18M
GATE_MEDIUM - 23M
GATE_HEAVY - 36M

Those are excellent and much better suited to AI than the previous FS2002 and FS2004 values. Proper use of fuel and vehicle parking spots is very important in FSX. Especially the vehicle parking spots and the vehicle type taxi paths.

It also has:
RAMP_CARGO - 50M
RAMP_GA_SMALL - 10M
RAMP_GA_MEDIUM - 14M
RAMP_GA_LARGE - 18M

Those are grossly over-sized and create tremendous parking problems if used in those sizes.

FSX does not have two parking spots at any default airport which were in FS2004, but they are still valid parking spot types.

RAMP_MIL_COMBAT - 26M in FS2004
RAMP_MIL_COMBAT - 44M in FS2004

Much of the time those sizes are too large - especially for very common aircraft such as fighters and C-130/C-17 transport aircraft.

I have not found a default parking spot of the remaining two types in FS2004 or FSX

RAMP_GA
DOCK_GA

Lee Swordy set both to 20M as a default. Notice that Lee Swordy changed the name for RAMP_GA in FS2004 to be UNKNOWN.
 
Hi,

FSX has the following default parking spot values:
FUEL - 16M
VEHICLE - 5M
GATE_SMALL - 18M
GATE_MEDIUM - 23M
GATE_HEAVY - 36M

That enforces my argument about the sign size representing the parkings/gates. What matters is the parking type and not the size of its sign.

That information can be shown as a label on mouse over the parking sign and all of the sign could have the same radius.

I hope I would be understood.

Best regards,

José
 
Hi, Phantoms

The parking circle should be seen as a symbol and not representing something in scale, in my opinion. The only function of those big circles are to cover important visual information on the area.

All parkings could be represented by the same symbol and show a label with their data on mouse over.

Best regards,

José

Jose, I tend to disagree here. While coding in XML the actual values are more important, in a GUI the actual graphical layout is just as important. So if the circle is representing a parking space with a 14m half-wingspan value and displays as a 28m wide circle, you can place the spots knowing graphically how close they are to the next spot. You know if you place the circles edge to edge that you will not get wingtips overlapping as the circle size represents the spot's actual wingtip size. You have a visual indication of this.
 
By 'standard', do you mean, for example, if a user selects "GATE_SMALL" as the type of spot, then that spot will default to a certain meter radius circle?

AFCAD, for instance, gave a 31.0m circle if you selected GATE_SMALL. 38.0m if you selected GATE_MEDIUM.

So I assume ADE will have a default value for each size spot?

Yes - to whatever standard you guys agree on with the possibility to set another radius if required.

I think on the subject of parking space size I am implementing a solution that will draw the spaces in their relative dimensions but allow the user to show them at the same size as taxipoints. They are layered in ADE to be above runways and aprons but below taxi points and taxi lines.
 
Transparency

Hi, Jon and all

Yes - to whatever standard you guys agree on with the possibility to set another radius if required.

I think on the subject of parking space size I am implementing a solution that will draw the spaces in their relative dimensions but allow the user to show them at the same size as taxipoints. They are layered in ADE to be above runways and aprons but below taxi points and taxi lines.

I do not want to be intransigent in my concepts, but always looking for an idea to make things better.

Well, I suppose Jon can use a symbol (or icon) of the same size, to not congest the drawing covering others important informations, and, also, represent the parking area with a well centered transparent color circle, with the real dimensions (radius) of the parking area.

One can see the icon (to aline parkings) and also the parking area limits.

Is it possible, Jon?

Kind regards,

José
 
Jose,

I'm missing something here, I guess it's getting lost in translation.

My perception of the single most important item in a graphical airport tool is ability to show various elements in a proper physical relationship to each other. That definitely includes the size of the parking spots, the limits of the parking spot, being shown on the screen.

A secondary consideration is the ability to display key properties of the object.

Now having the ability to see other elements is very important. I'd love to see where the teeOffset values are on the parking spot. We know that very short parking connector links are important so we need to be able to see the node.

However, one of the most important factors which Lee added to AFCAD was the ability to assign different colors to the parking spots. Yes there was a standard table, but many people customized their - such as the military guys who have one color for F-16, one for F-15, one for F-18, etc.

That color coding allows you to tell at a glance if the parking codes are right, or consistent, for an area.

A toggle on and off would be very helpful.
 
I also think it's time to 'update' Lee's parking information in the AFCAD readme with what we have learned after it was written:

The parking assignment process has been slightly tweaked in FSX, but still follows the same process as FS2004.

When an aircraft lands every parking spot on the airport is scanned and values are assigned to each open spot for various catagories. The spot with the highest value is the one to which the aircraft is assigned.

This occurs during the rollout phase of the landing cycle on the runway at about 30 kts. This is apparently when the aircraft moves from the flight phase of the process to the ground phase.

When the aircraft leaves the runway and reaches a hold short node - the parking spot assignment is confirmed with another check to see if the spot is open and no higher value spot is available.

At some airports with multiple runways you will see two or maybe three aircraft which have landed all assigned to the same parking spot. The first one to reach a hold short node leaving the runway gets the spot, the others are assigned to other spots, and in very rare cases may be deleted due to no suitable parking available.

I have not yet been able to identify the trigger event which makes a spot open and available for parking assignment. It appears to be when the aircraft enters the pushback phase of the flight cycle, but might be the contact with ground to request taxi clearance, or the announcement of taxi at uncontrolled airports.

Occasionally, you will see an AI aircraft parking assignment changed at the hold short node to a just opened parking spot.

The cycle runs like this as near as we have been able to determine:

1. Parking Spot Size - this is the only yes/no decision in FS2004 - there might be an additional one or two in FSX. Is there an open parking spot on the airport large enough to hold the aircraft? Yes - the plane will park; No - the plane is deleted.

2. Parking Code - This is a weighted value assigned to a parking spot. In FS2004 only one entry in the atc_parking_codes= line in the aircraft.cfg would be used in this process. Also, though multiple codes can be assigned to a parking spot - the first code has much higher value than a second code. By the fifth position in the list of codes, the parking code value can often be too small to overcome some other values below.

3. Parking Types - This is the atc_parking_types= entry in the aircraft.cfg file matched to the parking spot properties. Though Microsoft puts GATE,RAMP in some aircraft.cfg files, I've never seen multiple codes in that entry actually work. Every test description and AFCAD I've been given, it was other factors making the parking choice.

The atc_parking_types= entries match up as:

GATE = GATE_SMALL / GATE_MEDIUM / GATE_HEAVY - all parking types having equal value.

CARGO = RAMP_CARGO

MIL_CARGO = RAMP_MIL_CARGO

MIL_COMBAT = RAMP_MIL_COMBAT

RAMP = RAMP_GA / RAMP_CARGO / RAMP_GA_SMALL / RAMP_MIL_CARGO / RAMP_GA_MEDIUM / RAMP_MIL_COMBAT / RAMP_GA_LARGE - all parking types having equal value

DOCK = DOCK_GA

** Possible FSX difference - I have seen examples of GATE aircraft not using RAMP_MIL_CARGO spots upon FS session start. i.e. the aircraft are not assigned to those spots even though they are the right size. The aircraft was deleted. But landing aircraft with GATE are assigned to those spots for parking. Need more investingation.

4. Parking Areas - this is a much more critical element than most people realize

atc_parking_codes=GATE will be assigned to "Gate" parking areas first, then "Parking" all other parking codes except Dock will be assigned to "Parking" first and then "Gate"

Priorities

GATE # has a priority over GATE (any letter) #

There does not appear to be any priority of the # of the Gate. i.e. Parking spot Gate 1 does not have a higher value than Gate 2.

Gate A 1 does not have a higher value than Gate B 1 or Gate Z 99.

There is no apparent priority in Parking types for the RAMP aircraft.

A cargo aircraft will be assigned to a Parking # spot over a Gate C # spot as a preference. But if all Cargo spots on the airport are GATE C, this will have no bearing as long as there is a RAMP_CARGO GATE C spot open.

5. Size Difference - A 18M aircraft will be assigned to a 18.0M spot as a priority over a 18.1M spot.

Remember that aircraft are always in whole meters with no decimal places, but parking spots can be in tenths or hundredths of meters.

With AFCAD people could enter parking spot sizes in feet - and this created major issues with their airports. The rounding of AFCAD would display a parking spot with a radius value in feet of 65.55 feet as being a 20.0M parking spot - when it was really 19.98M.

There must have been a hundred threads on the old PAI AFCAD forums about something being wrong with parking/ aircraft over this single issue - because a 20M aircraft is not going to parking in a 19.98M spot no matter how it displays in AFCAD.

When dealing with aircraft.cfg wing_span= values, you must round up to the next whole meter.

When dealing with parking spot sizes in feet, you must not round up and cross a meter barrier.

** Possible FSX difference - there are some reports that a size difference of 5M or greater between the aircraft calculated value and the parking spot size results in the aircraft not being assigned to the spot / deleted. I have not been able to verify that, or determine if other parts of the parking process might influence that if true.

6. Parking List Order - Though last in the list, this is really the primary parking spot determinante for most AI aircraft. The open parking spot with the lowest index value gets the aircraft when several spots have equal value.

What happens is a 18M aircraft lands at EGLL atc_parking_types=GATE atc_parking_codes=BAW

1. Yes there are 34 empty spots 18M or larger on the airport
2. There are 14 open spots with BAW as the first parking code
3. Of these 14 spots - four are RAMP and 10 are GATE type parking spots - those 10 have priority
4. Of these 10 spots - four are GATE A and six are GATE # - those six have priority
5. Of those six spots - four are 18.0M in size, one is 23.0M and one is 36.0M - the four 18.0M spots have priority
6. Of those four spots - the top one on the list - the lowest index value - is the one to which the aircraft is assigned.

The real hard part becomes when the aircraft does not have a clear match in Parking Code - but the same process works.

1. Yes - there are 34 empty spots 18M or larger on the airport
2. There are zero open spots with BAW as the first parking code, there are zero open spots with BAW as the second code, there are zero spots with BAW as the third code, there are zero spots with BAW as the fourth code.
3. Of these 34 spots - 18 are RAMP and 16 are GATE type parking spots - those 16 have priority. All of the GATE spots have a parking code property other than BAW - so all are equal value.
4. Of these 16 spots - four are GATE A, four are GATE B, two are GATE C and six are GATE D - there is no priority
5. Of those 16 spots - eight are 18.0M in size, four are 23.0M and four are 36.0M - the eight 18.0M spots have priority
6. Of those eight spots - the top one on the list - the lowest index value - is the one to which the aircraft is assigned - even though it has a parking code of BMA BMI.

There is some extremely difficult to replicate evidence that a long enough taxi path from the hold short node to the parking spot will give a closer spot a priority over a more distant parking spot when all other factors except parking list order/ index value are equal.

However, the difference in the index value also appears to have a role in this parking assignment. i.e. If the two spots are very close - Index Value 6 and Index Value 8 - spot 8 might get the aircraft. But if the spots are Index Value 6 and Index Value 47 - then spot 6 gets the aircraft.

If you can work out an airport and flight plans to test this - let me know.

Now two final items on airport setup and parking.

1. Overflow parking of each type with no parking codes is critical to success. We recently saw a thread about why a SWA aircraft parks in a cargo spot. The fellow had spend days going over the aircraft and the SWA parking at the airport. The problem was an NWA airbus with a model size too large for it's parking spot. Without overflow parking problem aircraft land in other airline parking - and push those aircraft into other airline spots - what we call a cascade.

2. Airport parking must match the AI flightplans, not the real world. If the real airport has three gates for AFR aircraft, and the flight plans put four AFR aircraft on the airport - the parking will not work.

A very common issue is KBOS. The 'best' AI flight plans put 25 mainline AAL aircraft into KBOS to RON each night, and 16 American Eagle/ American Connection aircraft. Almost no AFCAD I've seen has parking for more than the real world 15 gates for AAL/ AALX. And it is very unusual to see more than five overflow spots. Right off the bat the 'realistic AFCAD' has 26 aircraft with no parking - so they overflow.

In FS2002 traffic files load and place AI aircraft based upon the order of the flight plans in the single traffic file.

That still occurs in FS2004 and FSX, despite the ability to have multiple traffic files.

Each traffic file is read / placed in order which the flight plans are in the source files.

And each traffic file is read and loaded before the next traffic file is loaded - this appears to be ASCII sort order as to which traffic file is read first.

Thus you can overpopulate an airport with AAL aircraft in the DAL and USA parking spots - and have most of the DAL aircraft deleted when their traffic file is read/ loaded. Then when the USA traffic file is read/ loaded - there are no open parkings spots on the airport - and no aircraft are placed there.

"Something's wrong with the US Airlines package - I don't see USA aircraft at KBOX"

No the AFCAD and the AAL flight plans don't match and the USA aircraft are being pushed out of the airport.
 
Hi,

Jose,
I'm missing something here, I guess it's getting lost in translation.

I suppose my English is not so good.

Jose,
My perception of the single most important item in a graphical airport tool is ability to show various elements in a proper physical relationship to each other. That definitely includes the size of the parking spots, the limits of the parking spot, being shown on the screen.

My suggestion could fullfil which you pointed out, I think.
Well, I suppose Jon can use a symbol (or icon) of the same size, to not congest the drawing covering others important informations, and, also, represent the parking area with a well centered transparent color circle, with the real dimensions (radius) of the parking area.
José

Best regards,

José
 
Reggie, thanks for the very informative posts on parking.
happy0034.gif
 
Am I understanding that there is a need to change the color of parking spots as a visual cue to the type rather than just leaving them Green? Maybe change the color of the boundary line?
 
Back
Top