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Enough airspeed?

hairyspin

hairyspin

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A story from a zoologist on the radio, investigating V formations in birds as a way of reducing the effort of flying distances. He got funding to buy a microlight and follow the birds in flight, then set off to study whooper swans which can do 40 mph. The aircraft could do 60, so he dived on them out of the sun and formed up on their wing. The swans eyed him suspiciously and accelerated: no worries, we have another 20mph of margin he thought to himself. They accelerated some more, and more, soon reaching 60 mph. Still distrustful, the swans kept accelerating and just powered away, leaving our poor airborne zoologist for dead. He never did manage to follow them!
 
hairyspin said:
he dived on them out of the sun and formed up on their wing
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That is the most briliant way to scare a flok of birds if you ask me.
Now I have actually seen something like this at an airshow, albight this was a someone who followed gees on their way from northern Europe to Africa for the winter.
I was most suprised by the fact that these birds were calm and flying exactly like he wanted them to along a runway. Now obviously this was a show so there birds might have been trained but I was amazed none the less...
As to what you're saying, this is quite interesting. I'm by no means a biologist, I stopped paying attention as soon as we had to draw apples in high school biology class, but from what I gather from conversations with biology students is that animals, including mankind, can go in to a state of "overdrive" when scared. More preciselly when adrenaline flows high, seemingly impossible things can happen. For instance I remember this story of a US soldier fighting in Normandy in '44 who got shot at least 4 times but kept going because of adrenaline.
I wonder if the same would apply to birds, could they be scared so much that they start flying faster then what we always assumed was their maximum speed.

ADD: the name of the performance was "Christian Moullec Vol avec les oies" (Christian Moullec Vol with the geese). If you search for that on the internet you'll find some nice picture of it (and the scared geese in question).
 
Huh, another microlight story, or is this the same guy? I started with the premise that the OP microlight did not find a large enough flock, or settle into the draft slot securely enough. Had he done so, he could have accelerated along with the birds, buzzing together within the slipstream they'd created.

"As a bird flaps, a rotating vortex of air rolls off each of its wingtips. These vortices mean that the air immediately behind the bird gets constantly pushed downwards (downwash), and the air behind it and off to the sides gets pushed upwards (upwash). If another bird flies in either of these upwash zones, it gets free lift. It can save energy by mooching off the air flow created by its flock-mate.

This all makes sense, but it represents decades of largely theoretical work. Scientists calculated how air should flow around a flying bird based on what we know about planes, but almost no one had taken any actual measurements. Henri Weimerskirch changed that in 2001, when he fitted pelicans with heart-rate monitors. He found that birds at the back of the V had slower heart rates than those in the front, and flapped less often."
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...at-fly-in-a-v-formation-use-an-amazing-trick/

You know, it can't be the same guy, this particular researcher led the birds with his plane. The only difference I can see is that one nurtured the birds lovingly and one dove into their midst like a predator. Huh, so much for objective observations from either of them. Anyway...
"Johannes Fritz had a solution. He works for an Austrian conservation organisation that is trying to save the northern bald ibis—a critically endangered species that makes vultures look handsome. The ibis went extinct in Central Europe in the 17th century, and Fritz is trying to reintroduce it into its old range. His team have reared several youngsters and teach them to fly along their old migration routes by leading the way in a microlight aircraft.

The human/ibis flock stops at fixed places along the route, and a support team follows them on the ground. That gave Portugal plenty of chances to fit the birds with loggers, record every flap of their wings for long stretches, and retrieve the data a few hours later."
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...at-fly-in-a-v-formation-use-an-amazing-trick/

Wait, here's the best part for those that don't click links, which I highly recommend in this case. Got to love National Geographic.

"'It was always assumed that V-formation flight was learned from the adult birds,' says Portugal. 'But these guys are all the same age and they learned to fly from a human in a microlight. They learned [V-formation flying] from each other. It’s almost self-taught.'"
 
That raises an interesting question, though OT: does a bird fly according to our trusted aerodynamic's laws? I believe the answer is no. I think we found an alternative to "bird flight", because we can't simply replicate the combined functionality of "propulsion" and "lift" in a feasible, affordable way.
Analogy in the earth-bound plane. Where humans and animals move horizontally using legs, manmade transport is utilizing the wheel. Inventing something new when trying to develop ourself with enhanced natural capabilities.

Back on-topic: probably the reason of V-formation flying is not so much technical/physical based, but more psychological. So a natural mechanism in behavior leads the birds to fly in formation. How do individuals in a group behave? Nobody teaches us to behave like a leader in group A, while performing as a follower in group B. It happens, it's in our blood, probably.
 
Daan, you might be interested to know windsurfers sometimes use a similar mechanism to wings flapping to generate extra drive from their sails when the wind is not as strong as they'd like: it's called "pumping" the sail and I can vouch for its effectiveness in many races from my younger days. I'm quite sure the V flight is done for physical reasons, not psychological - hang-glider pilots can feel the small lift increase as they formate with others in the same way and birds will feel it more keenly through their wings.

I just thought the zoologist being left behind by the "only 40mph" swans rather amusing.
 
Dutcheeseblend said:
Back on-topic: probably the reason of V-formation flying is not so much technical/physical based, but more psychological. So a natural mechanism in behavior leads the birds to fly in formation. How do individuals in a group behave? Nobody teaches us to behave like a leader in group A, while performing as a follower in group B. It happens, it's in our blood, probably.
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You would probably learn a lot from reading this and articles like it.

"The recordings revealed that the bird fly exactly where the theoretical simulations predicted: around a metre behind the bird in front, and another metre off to the side. Some ibises preferred to fly on the right of the V, or on the left. Some preferred the centre, and others the edges. But on the whole, the birds swapped around a lot and the flock had no constant leader."
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...at-fly-in-a-v-formation-use-an-amazing-trick/

While it may indeed be in our blood, probably, the birds seem to do relatively well in nature without needing to assert themselves as leader/follower and we might do well to learn something from them.
 
Heretic said:
I still imagine the quacking in a flock of ducks or geese as constant position updates.

"I have to pee."
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That raises an interesting question. Can a bird pee while in flight?

I should think so since they are perfectly capable of delivering their "gray bomb loads" whilst dive bombing some innocent two-legged creature's bald head...

... I have had this happen on several occasions! :rotfl:
 
Heretic said:
I still imagine the quacking in a flock of ducks or geese as constant position updates.

"Still here."
"I'm also here."
"Present."
"Who farted?"
"Still here."
"Here."
"Hi, mom!"
"Off your 7 o' clock, level."
"Still here."
"Present."
"I have to pee."
"Still here."
"Also here."
Click to expand...
You missed "Bandits at ten o'clock high!"
 
n4gix said:
That raises an interesting question. Can a bird pee while in flight?
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No they can't! It's against the law in the UK and in the EU. Some years ago I was paragliding over Monte Grappa and would have stayed up most of the day had it not been for the need to land to do no.1's after four and a half hours in flight.
 
vololiberista said:
would have stayed up most of the day had it not been for the need to land to do no.1's after four and a half hours in flight.
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Two words: "astronaut pants."

I live directly under a migratory route. These birds spend weeks "fertilizing" our parks, the hoard of Canadian Geese that descend upon The Gorge each spring and fall and I perpetually wonder, if you're going somewhere, shouldn't y'all up and get? Always glad when the kiters or deer hunters show up and chase them away.
 
Heretic said:
I still imagine the quacking in a flock of ducks or geese as constant position updates.

"Still here."
"I'm also here."
"Present."
"Who farted?"
"Still here."
"Here."
"Hi, mom!"
"Off your 7 o' clock, level."
"Still here."
"Present."
"I have to pee."
"Still here."
"Also here."
Click to expand...
You forgot the one that's heard on every journey anywhere in the world:
"Are we there yet?"
 
n4gix said:
That raises an interesting question. Can a bird pee while in flight?

I should think so since they are perfectly capable of delivering their "gray bomb loads" whilst dive bombing some innocent two-legged creature's bald head...

... I have had this happen on several occasions! :rotfl:
Click to expand...

I think you'll find birds don't pee -anytime.
 
I think I've learned chris doesn't euphanize - much.
 
They don’t pee, they don’t have a urethra so it all goes one way. A real one-size-fits-fits-all solution. May the blue bird of happiness fly over your head ... safely.

Or should that be bombs away?
 
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