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Excludes
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No idea here either.
There are two types of exclusion. One is the exclusion rectangle created using BglComp. These will remove scenery objects created via the BglComp SDK but not autogen. To remove Autogen Shp2Vec based terrain exclusions are required. However library objects clear the ground around them and I believe that AFX uses some sort of library object to exclude autogen features rather than a Shp2Vec based terrain exclusion. As far as I know this worked pre acceleration.
Perhaps you can give us a more specific example of what your are seeing.
There are two types of exclusion. One is the exclusion rectangle created using BglComp. These will remove scenery objects created via the BglComp SDK but not autogen. To remove Autogen Shp2Vec based terrain exclusions are required. However library objects clear the ground around them and I believe that AFX uses some sort of library object to exclude autogen features rather than a Shp2Vec based terrain exclusion. As far as I know this worked pre acceleration.
Perhaps you can give us a more specific example of what your are seeing.
Exclude Files
I am creating the airline terminal in Wichita, KS. Default scenery already places a generic terminal there. I used AFX to exclude the generic buildings and it worked. That is on my desktop equipped with Acceleration. When I copied scenery directory to laptop to test before uploading the generic buildings were still there. I discovered the laptop did not have Acceleration loaded. I installed it and generic buildings went away.
Is there a tutorial somewhere I can use to create the earlier excludes you speak of.
Mike
I am creating the airline terminal in Wichita, KS. Default scenery already places a generic terminal there. I used AFX to exclude the generic buildings and it worked. That is on my desktop equipped with Acceleration. When I copied scenery directory to laptop to test before uploading the generic buildings were still there. I discovered the laptop did not have Acceleration loaded. I installed it and generic buildings went away.
Is there a tutorial somewhere I can use to create the earlier excludes you speak of.
Mike
Hi Mike:
Just found this thread; this info might be of some pertinence to the topic here.
Although I mostly work with my scenery projects in ADE9X, an airport BGL I created recently (containing an FSX autogen exclude) with Flight1's AFX updated version 1.08 from Konstantin Kukushkin could NOT be decompiled by either of these utilities for decompilation of object libraries and XML placement files:
The recent BGL2XML GUI decompiler version 0.92x and the one in ADE9X from Scruffyduck, and Alessandro Antonini's BGLXML 1.80
(and now BGLXML 2.1 at): http://www.fs2000.org/index.php/downloads/doc_details/9077--fsx-bglxml-21
I had to import the airport into ADE9X, and then decompile the resulting output version created by ADE9X to get at the XML; I subsequently found that BGLXML 2.1 had also written out a MDL file for the exclude contained in the original AFX airport file!
FYI: Instant Scenery (also by author Konstantin Kukushkin) had at one time been able to use an object library which provided scalable and place-able "exclusion objects" (created as a freebie by John Dutton).
http://www.simforums.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=22390
It seems this "exclusion object" approach has been implemented now in AFX; and IIUC, the previous semi-proprietary BGL created by AFX's "non-BGLComp" compiler/decompiler by author Konstantin Kukushkin now creates an even more atypical airport BGL by allowing storage of a MDL file !
The significance of this IIUC, is that 3-D scenery objects are capable of excluding vector objects and other 3-D scenery objects too.
For example, Arno has mentioned that a nasty side effect of using custom ground polygons is that it "Excludes" ALL autogen underneath the ground poly.
Also, I recently discovered that a legacy FS2004 compatible "Thermal" object (consisting of a cube normally "invisible"), had "Excluded" underlying autogen when placed at an elevation too close to local ground level as a new LOD-10 terrain mesh was used with that Thermal BGL originally made for FS8 with a default LOD-5 terrain mesh.
BTW: Such objects and fuel trigger areas are normally only visible as a "green cube" in FS 9 or FSX by entering this in FS9.cfg or FSX.cfg:
[SCENERY]
ShowTriggers=1
Additionally, I have also used Instant Scenery precisely to place a smaller default FSX Acceleration 3-D light pole object "inside" a larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object in FSX, and then had that larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object become "invisible" (... not sure I understand that mystery) !
It seems there are features and capabilities inside 3-D MDL files in the FSX Acceleration file format that ACES (and perhaps some FS Developers) had not disclosed to the rest of us ...yet !
I hope this info might lead to further inquiry into these matters as possible functions that the FS Developer Community might be able to use with predictable results !
PS: ADE9X does offer use of both XML-based "Exclusion Rectangles", and FSX SDK SHP2VEC-based CVX vector polygon "Exclude Polygons"
GaryGB
Just found this thread; this info might be of some pertinence to the topic here.
Although I mostly work with my scenery projects in ADE9X, an airport BGL I created recently (containing an FSX autogen exclude) with Flight1's AFX updated version 1.08 from Konstantin Kukushkin could NOT be decompiled by either of these utilities for decompilation of object libraries and XML placement files:
The recent BGL2XML GUI decompiler version 0.92x and the one in ADE9X from Scruffyduck, and Alessandro Antonini's BGLXML 1.80
(and now BGLXML 2.1 at): http://www.fs2000.org/index.php/downloads/doc_details/9077--fsx-bglxml-21
I had to import the airport into ADE9X, and then decompile the resulting output version created by ADE9X to get at the XML; I subsequently found that BGLXML 2.1 had also written out a MDL file for the exclude contained in the original AFX airport file!
FYI: Instant Scenery (also by author Konstantin Kukushkin) had at one time been able to use an object library which provided scalable and place-able "exclusion objects" (created as a freebie by John Dutton).
http://www.simforums.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=22390
It seems this "exclusion object" approach has been implemented now in AFX; and IIUC, the previous semi-proprietary BGL created by AFX's "non-BGLComp" compiler/decompiler by author Konstantin Kukushkin now creates an even more atypical airport BGL by allowing storage of a MDL file !
The significance of this IIUC, is that 3-D scenery objects are capable of excluding vector objects and other 3-D scenery objects too.
For example, Arno has mentioned that a nasty side effect of using custom ground polygons is that it "Excludes" ALL autogen underneath the ground poly.
Also, I recently discovered that a legacy FS2004 compatible "Thermal" object (consisting of a cube normally "invisible"), had "Excluded" underlying autogen when placed at an elevation too close to local ground level as a new LOD-10 terrain mesh was used with that Thermal BGL originally made for FS8 with a default LOD-5 terrain mesh.
BTW: Such objects and fuel trigger areas are normally only visible as a "green cube" in FS 9 or FSX by entering this in FS9.cfg or FSX.cfg:
[SCENERY]
ShowTriggers=1
Additionally, I have also used Instant Scenery precisely to place a smaller default FSX Acceleration 3-D light pole object "inside" a larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object in FSX, and then had that larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object become "invisible" (... not sure I understand that mystery) !
It seems there are features and capabilities inside 3-D MDL files in the FSX Acceleration file format that ACES (and perhaps some FS Developers) had not disclosed to the rest of us ...yet !
I hope this info might lead to further inquiry into these matters as possible functions that the FS Developer Community might be able to use with predictable results !
PS: ADE9X does offer use of both XML-based "Exclusion Rectangles", and FSX SDK SHP2VEC-based CVX vector polygon "Exclude Polygons"
GaryGB
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The latest available versions of Bgl2Xml and ADE do now handle the bgl files created by the latest version of AFX. There is an unknown (to the MS SDK) object type present in these files. I cannot say what its purpose is however
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Shp2Vec polygons are only valid for FSX so they can be generated by ADEX, but not ADE9.
Good times. A small but huge detail has enabled me to accomplish what I was after. I had several generic buildings to get rid of. With ADE, I tried an exclusion box which didn't work. It didn't need to. I discovered, I'm a bit slow at times , my problem was I needed to designate the ADE airport file for a higher scenery detail. I stipulated a high density and all of a sudden the buildings in question were defined and I just deleted them.
Its the smallest of details that we stump our toe on.
Merry Christmas
, my problem was I needed to designate the ADE airport file for a higher scenery detail. I stipulated a high density and all of a sudden the buildings in question were defined and I just deleted them.Its the smallest of details that we stump our toe on.
Merry Christmas
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This is very interesting indeed.
I've had trouble using those exclude objects though. I thought of trying to use 3D dummy objects as excludes and tried it without success. I've now tried those Gary linked above - and they also won't exclude other 3D objects in my scenery, although placed in a higher priority scenery.
Is there any magic when 3D objects exclude others? Some setting or some trick how to place them (above/below ground)?
I've had trouble using those exclude objects though. I thought of trying to use 3D dummy objects as excludes and tried it without success. I've now tried those Gary linked above - and they also won't exclude other 3D objects in my scenery, although placed in a higher priority scenery.
Is there any magic when 3D objects exclude others? Some setting or some trick how to place them (above/below ground)?
Hi Thorsten:
At the time I was working with the default FSX Acceleration 3-D light pole object "inside" a larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object in FSX (which then caused that larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object to become "invisible"), I was doing so with Instant Scenery.
I may have previously "Saved" (new) object placement info "into" the 3rd party scenery placement BGL file for the custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object, then immediately "Deleted" that object from that same placement BGL file using Instant Scenery; this may have caused that BGL to be "managed" by Instant Scenery.
Instant Scenery apparently modifies scenery placement BGL files (in a yet to be understood manner) allowing them to then be recognized by Instant Scenery as one of its "own" semi-proprietary scenery object placement BGL files, which it also can "manage" by "hiding" those objects just previously placed the next time one re-starts FS with the Instant Scenery module loaded.
Not seeing ones scenery object placements upon inspection in the project area upon restarting FS can be initially confusing, and to get such scenery object placements to display (even though they are "active" in the FS Scenery Library), one must first manually "Open" that scenery object placement BGL file with Instant Scenery (apparently it still controls their ability to be displayed !).
Instant Scenery then re-indexes the FS scenery library (mid-flight... in either FSX or FS9 !), refreshes the scenery, and the objects can be seen.
IIRC, by default the last scenery object placement project one worked on will NOT show in FS on the next re-start until manually loaded via Instant Scenery.
One can circumvent this "managed scenery BGL" behavior by moving the Instant Scenery object placement BGL out of [FS install path]\Addon Scenery\Scenery into its own [project name]\Scenery folder active in the FS Scenery Library.
Alternatively, one can de-compile, then re-compile that scenery object placement BGL via FS SDK BGLComp to make it "generic" (...restoring "virginity" ?).
When initially attempting to modify "virgin" default BGL object placement files created by using FS SDK BGLComp with Instant Scenery via a "Move" or "Delete", an error message is thrown by Instant Scenery that it is not a "compatible" format BGL file; that error no longer occurs after saving object placement info "into" that BGL via Instant Scenery; it seems to allow the "Save" function without complaint.
All that being stated, it is possible, as I reflect upon the potential activities I was experimenting with at the time, that the larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object which become "invisible" may have accidentally been deleted then replaced by Instant Scenery, and it was not being displayed due to the "BGL management" function of Instant Scenery not having been circumvented by me yet.
However, the mere fact that this apparent "BGL management" function is even possible in FS in a "non-mission mode", raises some interesting questions as to how it is done... and how to put this ability to use in one's own FS Development work to achieve some additional undocumented workarounds and features!
BTW: The free (limited usage area) demo of Instant Scenery includes the Manual, which might be of interest in understanding that program's intended functionality:
http://flight1.100megabyte.com/instantscenery_demo.exe
PS: I had found that on my (then) FS computer hardware, the "Exclusion Objects" by John Dutton had white tops on the cubes that were objectionable when I tinkered with them in FS9 (I didn't test them in FSX IIRC), so I never got as far as testing their ability to exclude scenery library objects (rather than just autogen objects... which was all I was trying to exclude at that time).
Hope this explains a bit more, for purposes of further inquiry into this !
GaryGB
At the time I was working with the default FSX Acceleration 3-D light pole object "inside" a larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object in FSX (which then caused that larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object to become "invisible"), I was doing so with Instant Scenery.
I may have previously "Saved" (new) object placement info "into" the 3rd party scenery placement BGL file for the custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object, then immediately "Deleted" that object from that same placement BGL file using Instant Scenery; this may have caused that BGL to be "managed" by Instant Scenery.
Instant Scenery apparently modifies scenery placement BGL files (in a yet to be understood manner) allowing them to then be recognized by Instant Scenery as one of its "own" semi-proprietary scenery object placement BGL files, which it also can "manage" by "hiding" those objects just previously placed the next time one re-starts FS with the Instant Scenery module loaded.
Not seeing ones scenery object placements upon inspection in the project area upon restarting FS can be initially confusing, and to get such scenery object placements to display (even though they are "active" in the FS Scenery Library), one must first manually "Open" that scenery object placement BGL file with Instant Scenery (apparently it still controls their ability to be displayed !)
.Instant Scenery then re-indexes the FS scenery library (mid-flight... in either FSX or FS9 !), refreshes the scenery, and the objects can be seen.
IIRC, by default the last scenery object placement project one worked on will NOT show in FS on the next re-start until manually loaded via Instant Scenery.
One can circumvent this "managed scenery BGL" behavior by moving the Instant Scenery object placement BGL out of [FS install path]\Addon Scenery\Scenery into its own [project name]\Scenery folder active in the FS Scenery Library.
Alternatively, one can de-compile, then re-compile that scenery object placement BGL via FS SDK BGLComp to make it "generic" (...restoring "virginity" ?).
When initially attempting to modify "virgin" default BGL object placement files created by using FS SDK BGLComp with Instant Scenery via a "Move" or "Delete", an error message is thrown by Instant Scenery that it is not a "compatible" format BGL file; that error no longer occurs after saving object placement info "into" that BGL via Instant Scenery; it seems to allow the "Save" function without complaint.
All that being stated, it is possible, as I reflect upon the potential activities I was experimenting with at the time, that the larger custom FSX SP1 SDK 3-D light pole object which become "invisible" may have accidentally been deleted then replaced by Instant Scenery, and it was not being displayed due to the "BGL management" function of Instant Scenery not having been circumvented by me yet.
However, the mere fact that this apparent "BGL management" function is even possible in FS in a "non-mission mode", raises some interesting questions as to how it is done... and how to put this ability to use in one's own FS Development work to achieve some additional undocumented workarounds and features!
BTW: The free (limited usage area) demo of Instant Scenery includes the Manual, which might be of interest in understanding that program's intended functionality:
http://flight1.100megabyte.com/instantscenery_demo.exe
PS: I had found that on my (then) FS computer hardware, the "Exclusion Objects" by John Dutton had white tops on the cubes that were objectionable when I tinkered with them in FS9 (I didn't test them in FSX IIRC), so I never got as far as testing their ability to exclude scenery library objects (rather than just autogen objects... which was all I was trying to exclude at that time).
Hope this explains a bit more, for purposes of further inquiry into this !
GaryGB
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Thanks for all that explanations, Gary. I wonder why it doesn't work for me. I'm just using the OPT and not Instant Scenery, but that surely is not the reason. Everything is compiled with bglcomp anyway I guess.
So what's the magic that makes those 3D-objects-excludes work? For me it didn't, my objects are still there.
So what's the magic that makes those 3D-objects-excludes work? For me it didn't, my objects are still there.
Hi Thorsten:
IIUC, Instant Scenery is using its own semi-proprietary BGL Compiler, and is not using FS SDK BGLComp with a modified BGLComp.XSD file for FS9 and FSX.
Perhaps if one tries working with the Instant Scenery "Demo" and examines the output BGL files, one can better understand the difference between an Instant Scenery "semi-proprietary" BGL from a "generic" BGL created with BGLComp.
I suspect that one could conduct a comparison this way...
With Instant Scenery Demo installed:
1.) Load a Saved Flight with the aircraft in a slewed, static position
2.) Place a specific FS library object in Instant Scenery (allowing it to be created in the default [FS install path]\Addon Scenery\Scenery folder so it is "managed")
3.) Save a copy of the "semi-proprietary" BGL for evaluation outside the default [FS install path]\Addon Scenery\Scenery folder
NOTE: This should prevent it from being changed once it already has the purported "managed" attribute set.
With another XML object placer (being sure to use ALL the same placement settings and units etc.):
1.) Load the same Saved Flight with the aircraft in a slewed, static position
2.) Place the same specific FS library object
3.) Compile that object placement XML into a BGL with FS SDK BGLComp
4.) Save a copy of that "generic" BGL for evaluation
One could then compare the "semi-proprietary" and "generic" BGLs in a hex editor.
One could also take a copy of the "generic" scenery placement BGL and...
1.) "Save" (new) object placement info "into" that scenery placement BGL using Instant Scenery
2.) Immediately "Delete" that object from that same placement BGL file using Instant Scenery
One could then compare the "virgin generic" and "altered generic" BGLs in a hex editor.
I'm not certain, but I am doubtful that Instant Scenery "functionality" differences will be revealed in de-compiled XML of the placement BGL files.
Perhaps with some understanding of how Instant Scenery works with BGLs, one might better understand what AFX is doing with its semi-proprietary BGLs; and then maybe we can decipher how the "Exclusion MDLs" work.
PS: I suppose that one could also try using ModelConverterX to open and evaluate one's own "Exclude MDL" output by AFX.
FYI: The AFX "Exclude MDL" may thus far only be accessible after one's AFX airport BGL file is imported, and saved / compiled by ADE9X; the ADE9x CVX BGL de-compiled by BGLXML version 2.1 (as above) may subsequently yield one's "Exclude MDL" for analysis.
An AFX Demo is available at:
http://flight1.100megabyte.com/afxdemo.exe
Hope this might result in some new insights and abilities for FS Developers, if such functions are within the FS SDK code base available to all in the FS Community !
GaryGB
IIUC, Instant Scenery is using its own semi-proprietary BGL Compiler, and is not using FS SDK BGLComp with a modified BGLComp.XSD file for FS9 and FSX.
Perhaps if one tries working with the Instant Scenery "Demo" and examines the output BGL files, one can better understand the difference between an Instant Scenery "semi-proprietary" BGL from a "generic" BGL created with BGLComp.
I suspect that one could conduct a comparison this way...
With Instant Scenery Demo installed:
1.) Load a Saved Flight with the aircraft in a slewed, static position
2.) Place a specific FS library object in Instant Scenery (allowing it to be created in the default [FS install path]\Addon Scenery\Scenery folder so it is "managed")
3.) Save a copy of the "semi-proprietary" BGL for evaluation outside the default [FS install path]\Addon Scenery\Scenery folder
NOTE: This should prevent it from being changed once it already has the purported "managed" attribute set.
With another XML object placer (being sure to use ALL the same placement settings and units etc.):
1.) Load the same Saved Flight with the aircraft in a slewed, static position
2.) Place the same specific FS library object
3.) Compile that object placement XML into a BGL with FS SDK BGLComp
4.) Save a copy of that "generic" BGL for evaluation
One could then compare the "semi-proprietary" and "generic" BGLs in a hex editor.
One could also take a copy of the "generic" scenery placement BGL and...
1.) "Save" (new) object placement info "into" that scenery placement BGL using Instant Scenery
2.) Immediately "Delete" that object from that same placement BGL file using Instant Scenery
One could then compare the "virgin generic" and "altered generic" BGLs in a hex editor.
I'm not certain, but I am doubtful that Instant Scenery "functionality" differences will be revealed in de-compiled XML of the placement BGL files.
Perhaps with some understanding of how Instant Scenery works with BGLs, one might better understand what AFX is doing with its semi-proprietary BGLs; and then maybe we can decipher how the "Exclusion MDLs" work.
PS: I suppose that one could also try using ModelConverterX to open and evaluate one's own "Exclude MDL" output by AFX.
FYI: The AFX "Exclude MDL" may thus far only be accessible after one's AFX airport BGL file is imported, and saved / compiled by ADE9X; the ADE9x CVX BGL de-compiled by BGLXML version 2.1 (as above) may subsequently yield one's "Exclude MDL" for analysis.
An AFX Demo is available at:
http://flight1.100megabyte.com/afxdemo.exe
Hope this might result in some new insights and abilities for FS Developers, if such functions are within the FS SDK code base available to all in the FS Community !
GaryGB
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So, in short, excluding another object is not possible with the OPT? Well, then I need to stick to KML excludes. 
Hi Thorsten:
If indeed the "Exclude Objects" by John Dutton are not working properly in OPT and Instant Scenery, hopefully with some inquiry into this, we might learn how to make our own "generic" scalable and place-able MDL "Exclude Objects", potentially also capable of being compiled into an FS scenery object library that IS possible to use in OPT, Instant Scenery and other Object Placers !
IMHO, it would be very desirable to have a colored "bounding box frame" visible via an interactive preview of an FS scenery library object in a program that makes placement easier to do right inside FS... such as can be done with "normal" objects in OPT, Instant Scenery, WhisPlacer etc..
In the mean time, it would seem that one must use AFX or other tools to create very small exclude polygons that can be compiled into proper "Exclude" BGLs.
GaryGB
If indeed the "Exclude Objects" by John Dutton are not working properly in OPT and Instant Scenery, hopefully with some inquiry into this, we might learn how to make our own "generic" scalable and place-able MDL "Exclude Objects", potentially also capable of being compiled into an FS scenery object library that IS possible to use in OPT, Instant Scenery and other Object Placers !
IMHO, it would be very desirable to have a colored "bounding box frame" visible via an interactive preview of an FS scenery library object in a program that makes placement easier to do right inside FS... such as can be done with "normal" objects in OPT, Instant Scenery, WhisPlacer etc..
In the mean time, it would seem that one must use AFX or other tools to create very small exclude polygons that can be compiled into proper "Exclude" BGLs.
GaryGB
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Hi,
(Hopefully I am not saying something stupid, I just scanned the discussion above and might have missed some details).
MDL objects can only be used to exclude autogen, it is not possible to exclude other custom 3D objects with another MDL object. For that you will need a BGLComp XML exclude (which OPT can not make I think). If you want to remove autogen in a bigger area using shp2vec is probably better.
(Hopefully I am not saying something stupid, I just scanned the discussion above and might have missed some details).
MDL objects can only be used to exclude autogen, it is not possible to exclude other custom 3D objects with another MDL object. For that you will need a BGLComp XML exclude (which OPT can not make I think). If you want to remove autogen in a bigger area using shp2vec is probably better.