FS2004 Flatten not flattening everything

[lmhariano]

I'm redoing SACO airport, in order to make it flush with the surrounding terrain. For this, I added in ADE both an apron below each runway, and a flatten covering all the airport terrain.

The problem is that there's something in the mesh that raises the terrain around 100 m from the runway, then lowers it for the runway and then raises it again. See this picture:

Both the flatten and airport are at the same elevation. Shouldn't a flatten leave a flat terrain? I'm getting a terrain rise at each side of the runway. How can I prevent this? It's the first time it happens to me...

 

[scruffyduck]

For FS9 the ADE flatten should indeed flatten the airport. perhaps you can attach your ADE project file (.ad4) to a post here so we can check it out?

 

[lmhariano]

Please see the .ad4 attached. For reference, I always do simple compile.

 

[edphipps]

You are competing with the default flatten. The default airport altitude is 488.9m. Your flatten is set to 477.6m. Any part of the default flatten that is not covered by your flatten will cause the terrain to slope up from 477.6m to 488.9m. The default flatten covers the approximately the same area as the airfield grass landclass. You either need to enlarge your flatten to get a better blending with the surrounding terrain mesh or use a program like Sbuilder to exclude the default flatten. You should note that if you use Sbuilder then that will also exclude the airfield grass landclass so you would need to add that back using Sbuilder. I'm attaching a screen print of the default airport.
Ed

 

[gadgets]

This is FS9. I don't think it's possible to exclude the stock flatten. The only way (I know of) is to enlarge the custom flatten - which may include blending polys - so that it completely covers the stock flatten (or at least the unwanted areas thereof).

Don

 

[edphipps]

Yeah Don you can with Sbuilder. You create an exclusion polygon covering the whole flatten and use layer number 7. I've done it with a couple of projects.

Ed

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ed:

Considering the extensive discussion that has taken place over the years about removal of default FS2Kx Flattens, it would indeed be interesting to see more detailed information on the work-flow involving SBuilder for FS9 that you alluded to above.


I am familiar with a particular work-flow which was the result of research by a number of folks who are rather knowledgeable about the legacy FS SDK with regard to LWM terrain flattens (for both land and water), as well as other LWM vector BGLs used in FS2Kx.


An example of removing a FS9 textured Airport Boundary / Background polygon and the Airport Flatten is discussed here:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/moving-default-airport.434301/


Would you please post more detailed info on removing FS9 Airport Flattens via VTP layer-7 excludes ?


Thanks in advance for any further insights you might share with us on that process.

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

For the benefit of the OP and other interested readers:


IIUC, this project is Argentina's Cordoba International Airport ICAO: SACO (not to be confused with Spain's Cordoba airport)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeniero_Aeronáutico_Ambrosio_L.V._Taravella_International_Airport


Google Earth:

https://toolserver.org/~kolossos/earth.php?long=-64.208333&lat=-31.31&name=Ingeniero_Aeronáutico_Ambrosio_L.V._Taravella_International_Airport

Google Maps:

https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-31.31,-64.208333&q=-31.31,-64.208333&hl=en&t=h&z=14

Google / FS SDK TMFViewer "Jump" Coordinates: -31.31,-64.208333



FS9 default Airport Boundary / Background polygon: [FS9 install path]\Scenery\Same\scenery\AP930430.BGL


FS9 default Airport Flatten polygon: [FS9 install path]\Scenery\Same\scenery\FL930430.BGL


[EDITED]

FS9 default Terrain Mesh: [FS9 install path]\Scenery\World\scenery\dw120n00.bgl


FS9 default SACO Airport Altitude: 1603.995 Feet / 488.899017333984 Meters



FS9 custom SACO Airport Altitude via ADE9 - [FS9 install path]\Scenery\World\scenery\SACO_ADE9_LM_ALT.BGL:

1566.997 Feet / 477.622024536133 Meters


1603.995 FS9 Default (-) 1566.997 ADE9 Custom = 36.998 Feet Flatten Altitude Difference


Conclusion: FS9's default LWM Airport Flatten is NOT "fully" excluded by ADE9's custom SCASM Airport Flatten 'extent of coverage' ...as seen in the OP's attached ADE project file:

SACO_ADE9_LM.ad4

[END_EDIT]


SBuilder for FS9 (aka "SB205"):

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/sbuilder-205-for-fs2004.15077/


GaryGB

 

[lmhariano]

I tried removing the first flatten and creating another one, but ADE is freezing everytime now at the Flatten properties dialog box...Grrrr!!!!!! I think in 2 days I've killed ADE more times than the rest of the days ADE's been available

For reference, I'm using ADE 1.70.6040 in Windows 10 Pro 64 bit.

EDIT: After struggling with ADE, I was able to edit the flatten for a bigger one: however, the problem is still present. Since I don't like when developers ask me to remove some default scenery files, I used the method described here:http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/moving-default-airport.434301/#post-713137

What a difference it did! Now I have a wall surrounding the north part of the airport, but in real life, terrain is higher at the north. That's better than mountains lining runways...

Thanks a lot to all!!

 

[gadgets]

Yeah Don you can with Sbuilder. You create an exclusion polygon covering the whole flatten and use layer number 7. I've done it with a couple of projects.

Glad to hear it. I would seem I've been doing it the hard way.

Guess you're never too old to learn.

Don

 

[GaryGB]

Now I have a wall surrounding the north part of the airport, but in real life, terrain is higher at the north. That's better than mountains lining runways...

Hi again:

Assuming this project is intended to be freeware, you may wish to fine-tune the terrain blend from the central airport flatten outwards to where it meets the surrounding terrain using Don's Terrain Sculptor ...as discussed in this thread:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/fsxa-fantasy-island.435844/


Hope this helps a bit more !

GaryGB

 

[edphipps]

To answer both Gary and Don's questions I used my FS9 St. Louis, Mo. project as an example. To begin with I have no terrain altering addon mesh package on my FS9 install. Also there are no other KSTL airports active. Like many airport builders I prefer to create a scenery area for each airport. Therefore I have created a scenery area folder with a scenery and texture subfolders for this project. Since I am taking this airport back in time not forward I have made many changes with Sbuilder including creating an exclusion polygon using layer 7. My ADE project file includes a new flatten set at the same altitude as default. In order to test what is actually happening I first called my project file into ADE and deleted the flatten. Next I compiled the project directly into my KSTL scenery area scenery folder. What this means is that the only effect on terrain mesh in this area is now being provided by the Sbuilder polygon of which the compiled bgl resides in my KSTL scenery area scenery folder. I started FS9 and turned off my version of KSTL. I shut down and restarted FS9. Now the default KSTL is active and I am in no way affecting the terrain mesh. Using slew mode I moved the default Cessna 172 to a place close to but out of the default airport area. As you can see the in the first two screen prints one from FS9 the other from ADE with my project loaded and ADE connected the 172 is at the default airport altitude. 603.98 ft. I placed a marker at the aircraft position in ADE so that I could return to the same position after restarting FS9. I ended the flight and activated my KSTL scenery area. This means that I am now affecting the terrain mesh only by virtue of my layer 7 polygon created in Sbuilder. I shut down and restarted FS9 to make my KSTL appear in FS9. I connected ADE to FS9 and used the move aircraft here command to place the aircraft on the position marker. The Cessna 172 in now located within a foot of where it was previously. The altitude is now 612.5 ft. See the third and fourth screen prints. Therefore I conclude that the layer 7 polygon created with Sbuilder is having an effect on the default terrain mesh as it is the only terrain modification that I have active at this location. One last thing. The Cessna 172 was at ground level for both tests. I in no way used the ability of Slew Mode to change the aircraft altitude. I hope this helps in answering both your questions.

 

[gadgets]

Not sure what question you are answering Ed.

If you can exclude the stock flatten with a Layer 7 exclusion rectangle, then the current mesh will control the elevation of the terrain under and around your airport - except of course where it is automatically flattened at ARP elevation by taxiways and aprons. Unless you are very lucky, you'll have to re-flatten certain areas. Or, you can override the stock flatten with an even bigger one (which is what I've been doing for years because I believed someone I thought should know when he told me you couldn't exclude FS9 flattens) - which accomplishes the same thing, but may result in areas being flattened that don't need to be or that you'd rather not have flat simply because that's what the stock flatten did.

Ignoring the methodology for excluding/overriding the stock flatten, so long as there is no significant mismatch between the elevations of the airport flatten and the surrounding terrain, then a single flatten poly will often do - which seems to be the case with your KSTL. But, if there are significant mismatches, you likely end up with cliffs around your airport. To get rid of those you have to add some sloping polys around the edge of the main flatten so as to "blend" the flatten to the surrounding terrain. You can create those sloping polys (when necessary) with sBuilder or sBuilderX for FSX/P3DX, as Gary suggested with Terrain Sculptor, or for FSX and P3D, perhaps also with ADE (not sure about the latter). Alternately, if you've got the tools and inclination, you could alter the mesh - but "that's another story" and not for the "faint of heart".

Don

 

[edphipps]

Don, I mistook your reply to me as indicating that you still had some doubt about using an exclusion polygon Layer 7 to exclude the default flatten. I'm sorry that I didn't realize that you were only replying to me. That's the question that I thought maybe I was answering.

Ed

 

[gadgets]

No problem, Ed. The reason I added my two-cents worth was that after reading you post, I thought less-experienced developers might assume no blending was required if you simply exclude the stock flatten as you do. Anyway, between the three of us, we've pretty well covered the subject. Hopefully we haven't confused the initiator of the thread.

Don

 

[lmhariano]

Hopefully we haven't confused the initiator of the thread.

Sorry, you have done so Just kidding hehehehe

Now, back to topic: aren't these terrain blend instructions for FSX/P3D only? If so, I may try to do the same as I did before, but for an intermediate elevation. Would it work?

 

[gadgets]

Imhariano, rather than asking us to predict what will happen if you do a certain rather-ill-defined action, why don't you try it and, if it doesn't work as expected, tell us what you did - in some detail.

Don

 

[GaryGB]

Sorry, you have done so Just kidding hehehehe

Now, back to topic: aren't these terrain blend instructions for FSX/P3D only? If so, I may try to do the same as I did before, but for an intermediate elevation. Would it work?

After a forum search, I see the OP shows a signature of "Luis Miguel" in this first thread here at FS Developer:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/setting-l-variables-with-a-lever.244107/#post-422331


So, now that I know how to greet him (as Luis): ...Hi Luis !

Thanks for the humor; IMHO, the FS Developer forums are otherwise much too serious sometimes.



IIRC, both Don and I were probably rather busy when this thread was last in motion:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/fsxa-fantasy-island.435844/


What I Don and I both did not mention in the context of that discussion at the time was, that the output from Don's Terrain Sculptor can be converted back into a BGL format for use in FS2004 by either of several methods.


If you would attach an updated copy of your ADE4 file so that we can access the data for the new build of your intended airport terrain flatten and surrounding "blend flatten", we could then reply with a further explanation of the relatively simple process to convert the data set from your ADE flatten source code, or the output from Terrain Builder ...into a form you can use for the FS9-compatible airport LWM / LWM2 central 'flat' flatten, and surrounding LWM3 "sloped" 'blend' flatten.

GaryGB