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FSXA GCLA, AI approaches

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germany
Don' t know - probably Jim will be the only one who can answer my question.
I am currently working on GCLA, La Palma. According to the the AIP Spain I have lowered the elevation to 107 feet. So far I have kept the one and only default NDB/DME approach.
During my first test I realized that none of the AI aircraft makes it on deck :( - they all report 10 nm out, north or south, pretty high already but don' t really start a descent. They lower the flaps and the landing gear but pass the threshold at 2.000 ft (estimated) or even higher.

What can I do to get AI to land?

Thank you very much for your help!
 
Hi Hotelfox, I always have had problems with La Palma :D, I have observed that behaviour in one airplane he seem to make a go around but very high and always have intrigued me that. but it's the only one. Don't know if the fact that La Palma default height in fsx was almost that high could something to do with this.
Are you making something for La Palma, I have tried to fix the Terminal, (the trees problem) but has been a failure because in the conversion to fsx, the textures flicker a lot.and it's annoying. regards.
 
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Hi Hotelfox, I always have had problems with La Palma :D, I have observed that behaviour in one airplane he seem to make a go around but very high and always have intrigued me that. but it's the only one. Don't know if the fact that La Palma default height in fsx was almost that high could something to do with this.
Are you making something for La Palma, I have tried to fix the Terminal, (the trees problem) but has been a failure because in the conversion to fsx, the textures flicker a lot.and it's annoying. regards.

Hi Bernardo, It seems that you experienced pretty much the same problem.
Jim Vile says: '1. If there is no approach code in the database the AI flys the hardcoded .dll approach.' So far I can' t really believe in what he says. I tested GCLA with different varieties and AI flies exactly the same pattern, no matter what I' m doing. I added a transition, I lowered the altitude in the individual approach segments, I even deleted the default approach entirely - no change in the AI behaviour.

I still hope that I will once see AI aircraft touching down at GCLA. I changed the entire airport position and layout, revised the parking, added working turning pads etc (all based on default FSX stuff and so far no probs regarding textures or trees). Finally I' ll add some work using SBuilderX. The coastline looks pretty nice already. All in all it will be a nice destination to land - also for AI :) !
 
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Hi, I was referring to the GCLA Terminal from the airport of Canarysim which was launched years ago, this was for Fs2004 and have only that problem, the trees are transparent.
But the Ai issue happen with all your ai flight plans ?, I have that same problem but with one aircraft only (I think) which could be more weird even :confused:, the problem could be in the runway itself, not in the approach, look for runway links, taxilines, etc.
I guess you know the "photoreal scenery" from Airhispania :cool:
 
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Re. the "photoreal scenery" from Airhispania: All I know is that it exists.

Btw.: Few minutes ago a C172 (AI) landed at GCLA - with the default approach still removed.
 
Sorry, but I didn't understand very well, have you the Canary Island photoreal installed or not?:o, yes I not explained myself very well, this is a photoreal scenery for Canary Island , La Palma included :D
 
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Well if you are interested you can go to the Airhispania website, there you can get the photoreal for Canary Island from Alberto Sanchez, recently the mesh have been updated to 05 mts,Lod 13, pretty cool, :cool:
The early version Canarysim 2007 was for Fs2004 but this is a new for Fsx.
I get hooked with this scenery.
 
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Jan, Jim is correct. If you build an airport without ILS, AI will fly an automaticly added approach. However, if you change airport altitude, take some care. Sonds like ATC does not believe you lowered the airport. What happens when you fly in yourself?

Bob
 
Hi Bob,
You probably got me wrong. I don' t come here asking for Jim's advice and doubt his competence at the same time.
No, but my general approach to issues like these is that even the experts might have one or two tiny gaps in their knowledge base ...
And GCLA seems to remain a tricky destination.
I did an IFR flight to GCLA myself and the radar vectoring was o.k. but Canaries Control just asked me to descend to 8.600 ft - not any lower. Thus I found myself ten miles out (for RWY 19 that time) at 8.600 ft(!). That happened with the default approach uninstalled. But that's a NDB/DME approach for RWY 01 anyhow.
After re-installing the default approach (Tools > Load Stock Data) I tested AI once more and - Bingo! - one of the jetliners came in with a smooth touch down into RWY 19. Few minutes ago I tested new landclass textures flying around in a Cessna. Comms were switched to GCLA TWR and I was surprised to hear the same jetliner reporting a 'going missed' again.
I am sure that everything is installed properly. There is a 'GCLA_ADEX_hf_2_ALT.BGL' in the Scenery>World>Scenery directory, there is no other GCLA scenery addon hidden somewhere in my files.
Nevertheless - thanks for your help!
 
Keep up us informed of any progress please, I said before don't understand why one of my airplanes make a go around (it's not a go around itsefl, he keep flying at high altitude over the runway), if any traffic is in sight. :confused:
 
Don' t know - probably Jim will be the only one who can answer my question.

Thankyou for the vote of confidence but there are many here on this board that can answer questions on how FS works.

Jim Vile says: '1. If there is no approach code in the database the AI flys the hardcoded .dll approach.' So far I can' t really believe in what he says.

and I would not want anyone to take at face value what I say :)

I have been wrong many times and will probably continue on that same track as I discover more ways to get FS to act like a real airport ;)

The no 1. statement you are refering to comes from the 2nd post in this link.

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14074

Aquila ask the following 2 questions

Does an Approach also work without an ILS?
And which Approach do AI-Aircraft use to Approach?

My attempt was to explain weather vs non-weather related approaches but did a terrible job at answering his questions :o

You are correct when you say
So far I can' t really believe in what he says

I should have been more specific in the No 1. to say "If there is no ILS Approach Code in the database the AI flys the hardcoded .dll approach if the airport is VMC.

snip-----------
What can I do to get AI to land?
Thank you very much for your help!

Lets look at La Palma and see what are some of the issues that need to be addressed. We have a single runway at 170 ft. (once ADEX corrects the altitude) sitting on a Island that is almost 8000 ft high.

When I explain some of the code that AI Planes fly I very seldom discuss the mesh and terrain that surrounds many airports. La Palma is one of those airports that has more complex difficulties that ATC as to overcome.

I want you to imagine a fishing net (grid, mesh) that blankets the entire Island at about 8000 ft high.

When Airplanes approach La Palma ATC looks at the net and trys to keep all planes as high as or higher then the net until clear of all land obstacles. The problem is, FS did not uncover the airport and it is also sitting under the 8,000 ft. high net. Planes flying to La Palma have a hard time descending down through the net in order to be at the correct altitude during the approach. At times some planes may make it then again they may not.

I do not want to get into all the different FS Engines the AI Planes have to muddle through so before we set up a way to break the barrier we need to test your airport.

1. I lowered the airport to 107 ft. using ADE
2. My test flight is a FSX stock GA Flightplan that uses the Beech Baron
3. The flight is inbound at 10,000 ft. (from the south) to GCLA runway 01
4. Set the winds to favor runway 01 (8kts)
5. Set the weather visibility to 3 Miles from 10,000 ft down to 0 ft. We need to force the airport to be IMC. You can save this as a flight and then select after FS is running.

In the following picture and using ADE open approach Mode and set the stock NDBDME

Appr Alt Ft to 2000
Missed Alt to 3000
Default Turn to Right
Save the .ad2 project file and compile



We are now going to use the weather engine to force any AI Plane landing on runway 01 to fly through the 8000 ft barrier net and use the stock NDBDME approach.

My AI Plane is on short final flying the NDBDME Appr



In order to visually watch the plane fly a weather approach do the following.

1. Monitor the inbound plane using the Traffic Toolbox Explorer or slew out to the inbound plane.
2. Once ATC has told the AI Plane to expect the NDBDME Appr you can reset the weather to severe clear visibilty. The weather engine has already done its job and the airport thinks it is still IMC.
.
.
The AI Plane is banking to align with the runway
.

.
.

and on touchdown my plane wingtips shows the following effects

l_wingtipvortice=fx_wingtipvortice_l,1
r_wingtipvortice=fx_wingtipvortice_r,1

That is because the visual scenery still belives the visibility is 3 mile IMC moisture laden.



Once you know all the kinks are out of the stock NDBDME approach and AI Planes fly it properly then you can start working towards other ways to breakdown the mesh barrier at 8000 ft.
 
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Thankyou for the vote of confidence but there are many here on this board that can answer questions on how FS works.

You' re welcome! To the many others on this board: That' s why I said 'probably' :) .

Thank you very much for your detailed answer, Jim.

Lets look at La Palma ( ... ) sitting on a Island that is almost 8000 ft high.

That was exactly my suspicion - the last time I watched AI coming in (before I read your explanations of course) the aircraft behaved really weird when it intercepted the RWY centerline. It was banking left and right, the nose pitch was going up and down and the approach ended up in a 'going missed' again.

Looking at the aircraft I immediately thought that it must be in some kind of conflict, probably because of parallel input from different engines. The one engine saying 'don' t sink as there is high rising terrain around you' and the other one saying 'descent to 2.100 and contact TWR'.


Once you know all the kinks are out of the stock NDBDME approach and AI Planes fly it properly then you can start working towards other ways to breakdown the mesh barrier at 8000 ft.

I was able to reproduce your flight and it worked as you explained.

Really interesting but finally I think that the particular anatomy of La Palma (island and airport) will leave us with some unsolved issues as far as AI is concerned.

When I will fly in to GCLA in future I will cancel IFR early enough and fly in VFR. GCLA usually is VMC anyhow, probably at 366 days during the year :) !

Thanks again and best wishes for the holidays!
 
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Hi,

Well, I always follow Jim's instructions and the default Baron landed OK. However...
None of the real world AI ATR 72's, B737's, A320, etc. (Islas, Binter, Transavia and so forth)managed to land, they all overshot:confused:.
The default Baron I set at a flight altitude of 7900 feet and it worked but the others come from way above and do not seem to be able to lose enough speed and altitude to be able to land.I think, maybe you have to take out or change the default approaches and waypoints and replace them with new ones adapted to the real world altitude of the airport?
Maybe I am saying something stupid because I am no expert in approaches (yet:)), but I face the fact that the default baron does land nicely but faster aircraft do not (on GCLA).
Funny enough, but with the same 107ft airport altitude in FS9, I do not recall having those problems.
 
Hi,

snip-----------

However...
None of the real world AI ATR 72's, B737's, A320, etc. (Islas, Binter, Transavia and so forth)managed to land, they all overshot:confused:.
The default Baron I set at a flight altitude of 7900 feet and it worked but the others come from way above and do not seem to be able to lose enough speed and altitude to be able to land.

That is why I tested the Beech first using the NDBDME.

A fake ILS approach may have to be added. This will assist the higher performance AI Aircraft in a more precise way. The ILS will have to be curved from the ocean side which gives the plane more time to descend.
 
Thank you Jim,

I made the curved approach or what I think is a curved approach,( i.e. moving the waypoints a bit) and it works fine.
 
Thank you Jim,

I made the curved approach or what I think is a curved approach,( i.e. moving the waypoints a bit) and it works fine.

I have nearly the same problem with fs9 (6500ft instead of 8000ft).

could you please post the xml of your curved approach for my tests in fs9?

regards
 
Hi,

I would if I could but I cannot. I would have to drive 1200 miles to pick it up off my other computer.
But the way I did it is simple: add an ILS and you automatically get some approach waypoints or whatever they are called. If you move those out a bit so that they are farther away from your ILS and place them in such a way that they curve towards the ILS beam (sorry for my non technical language), you are changing the path the AI craft follows and giving it more time to descend.
 
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