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I see the change but...

T

Tockertive

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Here's the problem I'm having with ADE and FS2004.

I open any stock airport. I move a generic building to another location around the tarmac. Sometimes I simply copy and paste that building. I then compile airport and then save it. ( the bgl is saved to my Addon Scenery/scenery folder)
When I restart fs, I can see the buildings I moved in the new location, but the other airport buildings that I left untouched, are no longer there! Everything else at the airport has disappeared EXCEPT the buildings that I moved or copied. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Help please!
 
Do you have seen the buildings befor the changes?
Do you have set the visibility to extremly dense?
Or, what is the order in the scenery library? The Addon Scenery should be the first.
 
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Did you consult the really nice, HUGE manual? It's been some years since I last had time to use ADE, but I seem to recall that you need to "reload" the airport so that the default objects will be compiled into the new airport .bgl...
 
Can you attach the project file that is causing the problems to a post here so that we can check it?
 
Hey guys, sorry I took long to reply. I think I solved it? I noticed that when I looked at the airport in ADE, that those buildings that don't appear when I reload fs, have a small square on them and as I mouse over them, it says exclusion. I found that if I delete or remove the list of exclusions and then save, the buildings are now there! It's all there. I suppose there is a way to turn off that exclusion feature. Forgive me, I'm still learning my way with the program, but it's great! Thanks.
 
You should not delete the micro exclusion to see a building (sceneryobject).

You open a stock airport with ADE then save it. This makes a project file which is now your working airport. All work is done using the project file and not the bgl file.

When you have made your changes to the airport save the project file and compile.
 
What you did - did not fix the problem. What is says is that somehow the buildings that should be stored in the Bgl file created by ADE were not there but somehow the exclusions were. So in a sense you have removed the exclusions that stopped the stock version loading but that does not tell us what was actually wrong.

Also if you can see the micro excludes then I guess you loaded a Bgl file into ADE which is generally not done.

As Jim says ADE creates micro excludes that stop the stock buildings showing. At the same time it makes a copy of each stock building in the project file. That way you can move or delete the objects you see in ADE without having to worry about creating your own exclusions.
 
Jon,
this business of ADE putting in exclusions is still puzzling me as well as (it would appear) Tockertive.
When I open a Stock Airport in ADE, should I be able to see all of the Library Objects? After saving to an .ad3 file and re-opening this project file, should I then be able to see the Library Objects? At what point do these 'micro exclusions' get added to any file? Can I assume that the command "Load Stock Data" actually removes the 'micro exclusions'?
I assume that this particular function has existed from the very early days of ADE but I have never seen a full explanation of it - the manual does not make it clear either.
Can someone please give me and others a clear explanation of this - I suggest that a step-by-step example using a typical Stock Airport would be helpful. For example,
1. Open Stock Airport XXXX - library objects can/cannot be seen.
2. Save to ad3 project file.
3. Open Project file - library objects can/cannot be seen.
etc.

Ray
 
raymk said:
Jon,
this business of ADE putting in exclusions is still puzzling me as well as (it would appear) Tockertive.
When I open a Stock Airport in ADE, should I be able to see all of the Library Objects?
Click to expand...

Yes

After saving to an .ad3 file and re-opening this project file, should I then be able to see the Library Objects?
Click to expand...

Yes

At what point do these 'micro exclusions' get added to any file?
Click to expand...

When ADE loads the Stock airport

Can I assume that the command "Load Stock Data" actually removes the 'micro exclusions'?
Click to expand...

No


Exclusion rectangles are used to remove scenery objects from the specified region.

Flags can be used to exclude a subset of objects in the specified region. The subset of objects are Beacons, Effects, ExtrusionBridges, GenericBuildings, LibraryObjects, Taxiway signs, Triggers and Windsocks.

Contrary to popular belief the exclusion rectangle does not have to encompass (a bounding box) the entire object that is being excluded but only the reference point that is located at the LAT/LON. Since ADE makes a very small exclusion rectangle around the lat/lon reference point of a object the term micro exclusion is used.

1. When ADE loads a stock airport on the grid it copy's out of all the stock bgl's everything it can find that makes up the airport (and then some).
2. At the same time ADE creates mico exclusions for all the subset of objects I listed above and deletes all those stock objects in the project file (ad3).
3. ADE now copies all the objects back into the project file so they appear on the grid.

If I compile the airport all objects appear when I load FS. If I delete a certain sceneryobject and compile, that object will not show when I start FS since the exclusion rectangle is blocking it (excluding it) from showing.
 
I am not sure how to explain it other than how Jim has. His explains what is happening.

In practice and for most users they do not even know these exclusions are there and do not need to. They are designed to make moving and deleting stock buildings and other objects as easy a using the delete button or dragging with a mouse. Folks have asked about them over the years (about eight now I think). They usually represent more of a problem for folks used to using AFCAD or AFX where it is necessary to create your own excludes to remove the stock objects. ADE saves you the trouble.

For the avoidance of doubt. If you open a stock airport in ADE and just compile it to FS then you will not see any changes to the buildings and other objects in FS.

If you want to knw why ADE has these micro excludes then first you need to understand how FS works when you make an addon Bgl file.

The first thing is to understand how loading priority matters. This affects everything you do and in most cases is the reason why you do not see what you expect to see. If you have not already seen this: https://scruffyduck.clarify-it.com/d/9t7w7x then it might be of interest.
 
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Jon, one thing I've always wondered. Why does ADE use micro excludes instead of an airport exclude? After all what you want after opening a stock airport is the stock airport excluded and all the stock xml code duplicated so that the user can modify it, correct no? Anyway, just something that I'm curious about.

Ed
 
edphipps said:
Jon, one thing I've always wondered. Why does ADE use micro excludes instead of an airport exclude? After all what you want after opening a stock airport is the stock airport excluded and all the stock xml code duplicated so that the user can modify it, correct no? Anyway, just something that I'm curious about.

Ed
Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean by an airport exclude. However if you mean one large exclusion over the entire airport then the answer is that these can often behave in ways that are unpredictable. It is also possible that these would exclude stuff you don't want excluded especially if you are working with several Bgl files for one airport.

It also gets particularly nasty if a user adds their own exclusion to remove some non stock item. Exclusion rectangles can cancel each other out.

Also since they are rectangular a large one might cover a lot of ground that the user does not want to exclude. So then users themselves start to make smaller one. The logical conclusion then is to go as small as possible.

We get particular problems with taxi signs and with jetways in FSX. We did a lot of testing and concluded the safest way is to make exclusions as small as possible so that all they do is exclude stock objects.

I am sure someone will say that one big exclusion is fine and works for them. I have no issue with that but we made the decision to focus our exclusions on the specific objects and cover only the object reference point.
 
Thanks for the info Jon. I have used a few airport excludes in FS9. They work but I was not looking closely for missing objects that I didn't want to exclude. I believe your way will give the best results most often.

Ed
 
A last attempt to try and get my mind around 'Excludes'

Jon and Jim,
thanks for trying to explain this situation for me. I am going to try and paraphrase what I think you are both saying.
 
Here is what I think you are saying

I hope this doesn't get too long but here goes.

1. When ADE loads a stock airport on the grid it copy's out of all the stock bgl's everything it can find that makes up the airport (and then some).
Click to expand...
So everything in the stock file is decompiled and copied into ADE - that makes sense.
2. At the same time ADE creates mico exclusions for all the subset of objects I listed above and deletes all those stock objects in the project file (ad3).
Click to expand...
ADE then creates loads of micro exclusions so that none of the design objects will appear. These exclusions will not be listed in any ADE lists. But why do some people 'see' these micro exclusions and not others, including myself?
3. ADE now copies all the objects back into the project file so they appear on the grid.
Click to expand...
ADE then takes a copy of all the objects and puts them back into the ad3 file for editing as required by the user.

So now, if this latest file is compiled and placed in the highest area in the Scenery library, when FSX loads it will load the default FSX design file and then will load the new version which will firstly block out everything in the default file and then put in everything in the new file, thus only the modified airfield will be displayed.
Logic now tells me that, if a new version of an airport is created in exactly the same location and with the same name, and that this version was placed at the highest level, then when FSX loads, the absence of micro exclusions would mean that the original default objects would still appear with any of the new airport's objects also appearing - is this correct?
So the effect is that, when modifying an airfield, we are always working with 'copies' of the original features?
So when I open a Stock Airport in ADE what I see are the original features but when I save to ad3 and re-open, what I am seeing and editing are copies of the original features?
I do hope I am right so far!
Now I spend quite a lot of time modifying 3rd party airfield layouts particularly those supplied with Traffic X. When I open these in ADE, it is clear that these are based on the original default FSX files, but, although they do not show the stock library objects, when the airport loads into FSX, these objects appear - so no micro exclusions can be in these files. Incidentally, if one of these files does contain a new library object, does ADE put in a micro exclusion and then put a copy of the object back into the ADE file?
This is where I use the "Load Stock Data" in order to be able to manipulate the Stock Objects to my satisfaction. This must now put in micro exclusions as well as putting in copies of the original items in order to allow me to move things around or even delete them.

I think I had better finish here as my head is about to explode in trying to get to grips with this. Just putting these notes here has helped me get a better understanding of what is going on - I hope that I have now got it somewhat correct? Phew!

Ray :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
 
ADE then creates loads of micro exclusions so that none of the design objects will appear. These exclusions will not be listed in any ADE lists. But why do some people 'see' these micro exclusions and not others, including myself?
Click to expand...

Because sometimes people load the Bgl file into ADE instead of the project file (.ad2 or .ad3). While ADE can hide micro excludes in the project file it can't hide them in the Bgl file. The golden rule is never to open the Bgl file that you create but always work from the project file. Sometimes if you do not have access to the project file then you have no choice but to open a Bgl file. It is at this point that users sometimes decide to tamper with the micro excludes. Perhaps in the belief that they are not needed or something else. ADE won't hide micro excludes from loaded Bgl files since it can't be sure that is what they are.


ADE then takes a copy of all the objects and puts them back into the ad3 file for editing as required by the user.
Click to expand...

Pretty much exactly that. It makes a copy of all the objects to display on the grid.

So now, if this latest file is compiled and placed in the highest area in the Scenery library, when FSX loads it will load the default FSX design file and then will load the new version which will firstly block out everything in the default file and then put in everything in the new file, thus only the modified airfield will be displayed.
Click to expand...

Correct. ADE works on the principle of excluding everything from the stock airport and making a copy of it all. Some developers do not do this (especially if they are using another airport design tool) with the result that some parts of the stock airport are allowed to 'show through' ADE takes the approach that what you see in the ADE display is what you get in FS.

Logic now tells me that, if a new version of an airport is created in exactly the same location and with the same name, and that this version was placed at the highest level, then when FSX loads, the absence of micro exclusions would mean that the original default objects would still appear with any of the new airport's objects also appearing - is this correct?
Click to expand...

If you remove the micro excludes but otherwise do not change the copy objects in ADE then what happens is that all the objects are duplicated in FS. The objects from both the stock airport and the copies from ADE get displayed. If no copy object has been moved or deleted then it will appear like there is only one of each object since they will be co-incident. Try moving or deleting a copy in ADE and the stock original will show through creating a lot of angst.

So the effect is that, when modifying an airfield, we are always working with 'copies' of the original features?
Click to expand...

Yes

So when I open a Stock Airport in ADE what I see are the original features but when I save to ad3 and re-open, what I am seeing and editing are copies of the original features?
Click to expand...

By the time it gets into ADE you are looking at copies of everything including runways, taxiways, aprons, buildings etc etc

I do hope I am right so far!
Click to expand...

Seems that way to me :)

Now I spend quite a lot of time modifying 3rd party airfield layouts particularly those supplied with Traffic X. When I open these in ADE, it is clear that these are based on the original default FSX files, but, although they do not show the stock library objects, when the airport loads into FSX, these objects appear - so no micro exclusions can be in these files.
Click to expand...

Well this really starts to get tricky of course. What you have now is a copy created in Traffic X that you are now making a second copy of in ADE. The critical rule here is that once you have made your copy you should disable the Traffic X one to make sure that there is only one copy at work.

Again Traffic X is not making any copies of the objects but allowing the stock ones to show through. So you are right that there are no micro excludes. These are unique to ADE as far as I know and if the developer of Traffic X is only interested in delivering an AFCAD file then it is probably made with another tool and not ADE.

It you want to make a true copy so that you are not allowing stock objects to show through then you need to use the Load Stock Data function in ADE. This will makes copies of the stock items you select and also create the micro excludes. At this point you should have a project in ADE that has the Traffic X airport facilities and copies of the stock objects and be pretty much like a modified stock airport project.

Incidentally, if one of these files does contain a new library object, does ADE put in a micro exclusion and then put a copy of the object back into the ADE file?
Click to expand...

No. ADE will only make excludes for stock objects. If you do have a third party Bgl that you want to work from and it contains objects then disabling the original show ensure that the object shown is the one coming from your ADE project.

This is where I use the "Load Stock Data" in order to be able to manipulate the Stock Objects to my satisfaction. This must now put in micro exclusions as well as putting in copies of the original items in order to allow me to move things around or even delete them.
Click to expand...

I covered that above and you are correct.

I think I had better finish here as my head is about to explode in trying to get to grips with this. Just putting these notes here has helped me get a better understanding of what is going on - I hope that I have now got it somewhat correct? Phew!
Click to expand...

To be honest many users would not even be aware of this not actually need/want to understand what is going on. Hopefully it is a bit clearer now :)
 
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