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P3D v4 Is P3D demand fading?

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I have been out from developing for a while, but have kept following the big sim sites....just to try to stay updated as much as possible. I still do private projects here and there.....in reality just to stay "current" (how quickly we forget to do transparent, but reflective textures LOL)

One thing I constantly see is MSFS dominating every aspect of publicity, and it makes sense.

But has demand for P3D add-ons generally died during the process? I'm really wondering if developing for P3D simmers is just a waste of effort. I used to have a lot of followers that were FSX and even FS9 users, and most have transitioned directly to MSFS. And according to my customer demographics, these are guys who would not upgrade their PCs to enjoy upgrading to P3D (from FSX) but did not break a sweat to invest in higher end PCs for MSFS (very strong message!).

The only commercial benefit I see for P3D seems to be development in the private/mil sector projects......which is really where the REAL $ is, if that is what you're after

David
 
Sales for P3D related consumer product is getting low in recent years
Because big scenery companies (like Orbx) release all these small tiny airports that no one cares about that MSFS users just fly too via VFR instead of releasing bigger needed airports and guaranteed P3D sales would be fine if they released bigger airports.
 
I've also noticed the direction scenery development has taken in general, like modeling the Starbucks counter in the terminal but the taxiway signs, ground markings, visual approach elements suck! The other day I downloaded an airport from a pretty well known developer, and the ILS's where leading me directly to the parking lot.......yet the Starbucks was magnificent!

You can tell priorities have changed.
 
I don't think P3D is fading at all. Another perception, if I may, It not that P3D is fading but it's because developers are not having any problems as they are with Asobo's MSFS. Therefore not much traffic or problems are being reported or stated here. It has been mentioned that MSFS is now possible (with the help of human error) causing device issues, such as overheating. I have not heard of any software having so many issues then MSFS has had/ or having.
 
It has been mentioned that MSFS is now possible (with the help of human error) causing device issues, such as overheating. I have not heard of any software having so many issues then MSFS has had/ or having.
Faulty code could only prevent device overheating, only malicious code would cause heat buildup. If a device overheats, it means it is running "optimal," given physical limitations, including dirt and ventilation. Or, possibly you're making an argument to limit development, until such time as hardware can satisfactorily present it.

As to "issues," they were what drove me away from Lockheed Martin, how quickly we forget. P3D demand would fade typically, due to the constrained nature of the license, price and most importantly, because it had been an alternative to FSX:SE, at a time when nothing else was available. Despite the new issues, that availability has changed.
 
Faulty code could only prevent device overheating, only malicious code would cause heat buildup. If a device overheats, it means it is running "optimal," given physical limitations, including dirt and ventilation. Or, possibly you're making an argument to limit development, until such time as hardware can satisfactorily present it.

As to "issues," they were what drove me away from Lockheed Martin, how quickly we forget. P3D demand would fade typically, due to the constrained nature of the license, price and most importantly, because it had been an alternative to FSX:SE, at a time when nothing else was available. Despite the new issues, that availability has changed.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I have known of cases where hardware was the cause of CTD due to software, be it overheating or worse, bad programming, but I do not have the time or the desire to debate it. My perception is what I have seen and have read. Concerning the problem you have had with P3D, I never had so I can't forget something that never happened to me. It shouldn't take 3 years or more to fix the ongoing problems they continue to create (including the mishaps in updating).. No software is perfect but I think it's time for Asobo to re-access the recommended hardware necessary to run the software properly and safely.

I have moved on from FS in general except for helping others. I've been learning and working on animation and movie effects within Blender (and getting paid to do it ;).
 
NOTE: My own viewpoint comes from here:
I started with "Sublogic FS1" on a Tandy TRS80, back in the 1980's. So I've personally seen, flown and experienced them all. And I got interested in creating my own flightsim add-on around the year 2000.

I've also noticed the direction scenery development has taken in general, like modelling the Starbucks counter in the terminal but the taxiway signs, ground markings, visual approach elements suck!
The other day I downloaded an airport from a pretty well known developer, and the ILS's where leading me directly to the parking lot.......yet the Starbucks was magnificent!
1 - Great observation @pinkjr! Now do you want to be able to understand the why this is happening?
If "answer"=="yes" then:

Do a step (or two. three, n) back out of the entire MS-"Flight"-sTimulation" 2020 eco-system.
Start elevating your viewpoint (back) into Low Earth Orbit, in order to get a full spectrum look on the "gaming" industry since around the year 2000.
Take an objective - and historical look at what truly has happened to Microsoft (100%) pure flight-simulation over here:
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Flight_Simulator
-https://archive.org/details/microsoft-flight-simulator-2004-a-century-of-flight

Hint: We already have lost the 100% pure flight-simulator ability after FSX came out.
 
2 - TAKING A LITTLE SIDESTEP HERE - TO A MUCH WIDER GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE:
Broadening the viewpoint by looking around to find the "hidden_patterns" inside the entire games industry, aka "the bigger long-term background plans":

TDLR summary:
Everything "gaming" has been designed to drag all of games-loving (or should I say "made addicted") humanity into an never-ending "Virtual Reality world(s)". Period.
This has been deliberately done over the last 4 decades! via techniques like "Game-based learning", Business AR and VR applications and now the entire "Digital (IoT)" Twin movement.


A perfect example of this game_design_pattern can be found at Electronic Arts's "SimCity" product-line:
SimCity (Classic) once started out as a "birds-eye-viewpoint" economic city-simulator back in 1989:
-https://www.old-games.com/download/862/sim-city

It then evolved into the 2.5D viewpoint economic city-simulator "SimCity2000" (1998)
-https://www.old-games.com/download/4405/sim-city-2000

Next it morphed into the complete 3D move-able viewpoint city-simulator "SimCity3000"(2000) and later on "SimCity4(2003)"
-https://www.old-games.com/download/6605/simcity-3000
-https://www.old-games.com/download/7047/simcity-4

Along that path, suddenly? all kinds of Sim*.* emerged (*.* as in Ants, Farm, Tower, Copter and so on):
-https://www.old-games.com/download/4403/sim-ant (1991)
-https://www.old-games.com/download/4406/sim-farm (1993)
-https://www.old-games.com/download/4416/simtower (1994)
-https://www.old-games.com/download/8800/simcopter (1996)
and many many more spin-off variants on the same Sim* theme...mmm... Now ask yourself: Why did this happen? Who really benefits?

Finally SimCity's true intentions came up to the surface with? "The SIMS" product line.
Here the SimCity franchise changed its gaming objectives from managing a city into simulating virtual people's lives!
- https://www.old-games.com/download/6606/sims-the

Now that you know this pattern (too), Take a look around you, how many other gaming types/brands have followed this pattern:
- Role Playing games (World of Warcraft, ... )
- 1st person shooters (Wulfenstein, Doom, Quake, Unreal, Counter-Strike, Call-Of-Duty, Battlefield, Halo, ... )
- Second Life (the first major virtual world experience)
- Fornight, Call Of Duty WarZone (massive online virtual battle-spaces)
- Roblox , Minecraft (virtual worlds building ecosystems)
I'm sure you will see this pattern occurring in here too.

Almost everything has been designed and implemented to take away (what is left of the average) human-beings attention-span and systematically replace those real-life person-to-person experience with artificially Avatars, Wannabe characters, virtual asset creations and collection. Real flesh-and-blood human beings are slowly being transformed into "Digital Life-forms", who are living out their real Selves inside somebody elses owned, controlled fake synthetic virtual worlds.
 
3 - Let's switch back to what Microsoft has pushed as their own (not the global flightsim communities members) long-term, profitable business objectives,
ever since they transformed their "FS-X" brand into the "ESP" platform back in 2007.


NOTE: For more in-depth background reading on this matter, see the 6 articles on the links below:
-https://news.microsoft.com/2007/11/14/microsoft-esp-debuts-as-a-platform-for-visual-simulation/ [1]
-https://news.microsoft.com/2007/11/...d-defense-simulations-built-on-microsoft-esp/ [2]
-https://news.microsoft.com/2008/10/...rosoft-esp-a-valuable-tool-for-public-sector/ [2]
-https://news.microsoft.com/2008/12/...e-future-of-immersive-simulation-experiences/ [4]
-https://news.microsoft.com/2009/11/...ment-to-bring-better-training-to-warfighters/ [5]
-https://news.microsoft.com/2009/12/...-object-code-to-enhance-training-simulations/ [6]

For the R&D dieHards among us: 2 Bonus articles on Microsoft and another version of their "ESP":
- https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/rethinking-the-esp-game/
- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221517395_Rethinking_the_ESP_game
 
4 - I've have found some interesting text-fragments, which go outside their "100% flight-simulation business" narrative/business_scope of ESP:
Article 1
Microsoft ESP platform will help government, commercial and academic organizations apply immersive games-based technology and interactive learning experiences to improve work-force readiness and increase operational excellence.
"Workforce Readiness" goes way beyond 100% pure flight-simulation alone. It is using ESP technology to train human-beings in general, not future pilots alone.

Future versions of Microsoft ESP will expand beyond aviation into ground and maritime operations, indoor and avatar-centric simulations for commercial, government and academic learning opportunities.
"Beyond Aviation" and "Indoor and Avatar Centric" as in creating virtual world and persons?

Microsoft ESP includes geographical, cultural, environmental and rich scenery data along with tools for placing objects, scenery and terrain customization, object activation, special effects, and environmental controls including adjustable weather.
What do things like Cultural have to do with 100% pure flight-simulation ?


Article 2:
“We’ve had a number of customer and partner requests over the years to license the Flight Simulator engine, but we decided to go a step further and deliver a full platform,
including engine, tools and content,” says Shawn Firminger, studio manager for Microsoft’s ACES Studio.
This is the most important quote: Microsoft had no intention! to license ESP to other parties.
The Microsoft ESP team wants to have and keep full (content?) ownership of their ESP digital world platform.

... and as Microsoft works to build out the detail of those environments in the future, Nicol sees a tremendous expansion of opportunities...
...As in digitizing, virtualizing the entire Planet Earth perhaps?

There are other markets and we think Microsoft ESP’s roadmap will allow us to think outside the box more as the platform evolves.”
That flexibility to scale and to allow smaller development shops into the market also has the potential to stimulate a new ecosystem of solutions
Note the use of the word "eco-systems" in this context.


Article 3:
...Harris says one solution may lie in what is increasingly known as the “spatial web” – platforms and technologies such as mobile devices, location-based Web services,
search engines, social networking sites, and other services that consider the user’s location in space and time.
The "Spatial Web" is - simply put in other words - a virtual reality based human activity tracking-and-tracing grid.

There has also been no way to accurately simulate a large disaster response, because there was no way to simulate a crowd of people acting like they would under those circumstances
Crowd behavioural simulation inside their owned ESP platform.

we have everything in place to provide these capabilities quickly, and to develop and deploy virtual, “mirror world” environments with accurate and realistic data and scenarios.”
Another interesting mention of virtual "mirror" world deployments.

The difference is that Microsoft is providing the tools for organizations to build their own environments, or mirror worlds, with real world data, so they can interact with it in a realistic manner.
Says Boker, “If you look at how far and how fast the first-person and multi-person gaming has come in the past few years, you begin to get an idea of where we’re headed with simulation.”
Interesting first / multi-person shooter reference.
 
Article 4:
In response to partner requests, the Microsoft ESP group has enhanced marketing efforts on a number of fronts, including the January 2009 availability of a single-client license at $899 (U.S.) and a single software development kit (SDK) at $99 (U.S.); the announcement of a worldwide Microsoft ESP Partner Program to provide increased technical and marketing opportunities;
Question: Could this be the reason ($) why I have that feeling that most freely available Microsoft "SDK"'s are far from being accurate and 100% complete ?
And that - if you are willing to pay Microsoft enough money - you can buy the 100% complete documented SDK in the same way as they did with their MSDN and TECHNET programs?


Article 5:
The Microsoft ESP IP licensing agreement builds on the existing Microsoft/Lockheed Martin Strategic Alliance to bring meaningful information technology services and products to market and continue to fuel innovation. It is also an example of Microsoft’s broader efforts to collaborate with industry through IP licensing.
And 2 years later, Microsoft does start to license their ESP-products to 3rd parties. Now ask yourself why?


Article 6:
Microsoft Corp. and Flight1 Aviation Technologies (Flight1 Tech) have entered into an intellectual property (IP) license agreement that gives Flight1 Tech access to Microsoft ESP’s powerful visual simulation technology. Flight1 Tech took a license for the Microsoft® ESP™ v1.0 object code, which enables the company to create detailed, customized flight safety, flight training and strategic solutions for its customers.
And another licensing partner follows in Lockheed Martin's footsteps.

Microsoft ESP technology allows users to operate vehicle models that incorporate real-world physics to enhance realism, such as in the interior and instrumentation of a Boeing FA-18 shown here.
Now this is a very interesting one (also in relation to other threads on this forum):
The ability to model real-world physical inside ESP, was already present back in 2009.
Now when? where? and why? did this ability got lost inside the current MSFS2020 "SDK"?
To me personally the current MSFS2020 "SDK" still looks and feels like it has been based upon either:
- That good old ESP SDK from Microsoft herself, from back in 2007.
- A debugged and evolved copy of the old ESP SDK, licensed from/bought back from Lockheed Martin by the Microsoft / Asobo Studios team.


SUMMARY SO FAR:
Microsoft has been actively developing - ever since ESP came out - the creation of a virtual simulation platform and not a 100% pure flight-simulation application anymore.
This is also the how and why the "game-ification" of 100% pure flight-simulation started, by embedding game / missions elements into the "100% pure flight-simulator" (Read: FSX)
To be able to assimilate their entire "FSX investments and brand" into their XBOX game-development ecosystem later on in time.

Lockheed Martin at the other hand, took ESP a step (or 2) further with development of "Prepar3D", using ESP simulation for real life, governmental and military-based simulation purposes.
Now that is a whole different application of the Microsoft ESP platform technology then "100% pure flight-simulation" alone.
They have been developing their (ESP based) "Prepar3D" product-line into a industrial strength simulation platform with many serious business customers.
From what I've seen and read over the last decade, LM is being totally honest about their long term business intentions and goals.

LM is also one of the biggest military defense contractors on the planet, and serves a lot of serious military-grade clients.
So I think that it will be highly unlikely that their "Prepar3D" product will vanish over time.
 
6 - MOVING FORWARD (OR SHOULD I SAY BACKWARD) INTO THE CURRENT MSFS2020 ECOSYSTEM:
Suddenly - in the year 2020 - out of the blue, after many years of absence - Microsoft magically pops-up back into the consumer-part of the flight-simulation scene, baring a lot of so called free gifts.
They now offer a ready-made, easy-to-use, Azure cloud technology based digital planet! to virtually "fly" around it.. mmm...
Does anyone else see the same pattern here? And since nothing in life is ever totally free, what facts are not being told here?

7 - TO MY OWN OPINIONS, THESE ARE THE REAL REASONS BEHIND:
- Why Microsoft is back again behind MSFS2020: Not as 100% pure flight-simulator (that is only their official pr-story) but as (virtual) World simulation tool / platform.
- Why MSFS2020 looks so incredible good, but it flies like a ton-of-bricks, since it is now all about "full immersion via lots of shiny visual sTimulations".
- With the "come-back" of MSFS2020, It has never been their true intentions to create the best - and most mathematically correct 100% flight-simulator at all.

- Why Asobo Studio (a studio with a history in gaming - not computational fluid dynamics) simply chooses to ignore the entire global flightsim community requests for:
-- Better and mathematically correct flight models? (Why did MSFS2020 start with props-only "flightmodel" back in 2020?).
-- More and truly 100% open(sourced) access into the very heart of MSFS2020 sTimulation engine.

Why? Since my educated guess is - that Microsoft and Asobo will continue to push their own agenda forward:
Creating a virtual Planetbuilder package
under a misleading brand and the disguise of a "flight-sTimulator".

TIP: In order to enjoy a true 100% pure flight-simulator, take a look at "FlightGear", "XPlane" or really start from scratch to develop one's own 100% pure flight-simulator again.
-https://www.amazon.com/Flights-Fantasy-Programming-Video-Games/dp/1878739182

Just start digging into Microsoft's true intentions on ESP, dating from back in 2007, and see what you come up with.
 
7 - Is this all happening as some sort of magically driven spontaneous coincidence? No!
Like the famous US-president Franklyn D. Roosevelt once said:
"In politics: If something happens, you can bet it was planned this way (beyond your current state of awareness)"
-https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/franklin_d_roosevelt_164126


NOTE: Switching back (up) again into the Low Earth Orbit viewpoint:
What else did you see happening inside many (other) digital eco-systems for the last 3 decades?

A - Microsoft herself has been working on Terraserver(tm) as test-bed for storing satellite imagery on her own SQL databases (1998)
This already started way before something like "Google Earth" ever came into existence.
-https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/the-microsoft-terraservertm/
-https://news.microsoft.com/1998/06/...-atlas-is-worlds-largest-database-on-the-web/

B - Microsoft has been developing VR technology called "HoloLens" (also for US military applications)
-https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/hololens
-https://news.microsoft.com/transfor...echnology-in-high-tech-headsets-for-soldiers/

C - Google is very busy creating a virtual (entire) world model behind the scenes:
The outcomes of Google's efforts are being published via products like "Google Maps", "Google Earth", "Google AR/VR", "Google Glasses"
-https://www.google.com/maps
-https://earth.google.com/web/
-https://arvr.google.com/earth/
-https://www.google.com/glass/start/

D - "FaceBook" is actively pushing the MetaVerse and VR technology upon their end_users:
-https://about.facebook.com/meta/
-https://www.lyfemarketing.com/blog/facebook-metaverse/

I'm pretty sure - now that you know and understand "the_pattern" - you can find many more of these like-wise efforts over the last decades in various other-then-100%-ict-alone industries all across the globe.
 
8 - CIRCLING BACK TO LAND AT THE MSFS2020-AIRSTRIP FOR A FULL-STOP:
I think "MSFS2020" must be re-branded into something, which honestly reflects Microsoft (business) intentions as stated back 2007:

"Microsoft2020 - Artificial / Virtual World(s) Builder and visual sTimulation Toolkit"
(inside which you can also "drive", "float", "fly" and spend the rest of your entire Life too)


You can tell priorities have changed.
9 - Here you have it. The (hidden) bigger picture, the background story on who's priorities have changed for what underlying reasons.
The brand called "MSFS2020" is not, and I repeat, is not about "100% pure flight-simulation" any more.

Want proof?
10 - Start asking the nasty questions / actively pushing for real (technically) verifiable answers on those much needed consumer empowering and supporting features.
Those much needed items by developers which have been systematically ignored by Microsoft and Asobo Studio for the last 2 years ...of still Beta-testing their newly created MSFS2020 eco-system...
 
People need to get out more. Compared to what is "cutting edge," this sim is STILL a leatherette bound excuse for immersion. Creators are placing themselves inside the simulation, all we have is maybe accurate ILS.

 
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