• Which the release of FS2020 we see an explosition of activity on the forun and of course we are very happy to see this. But having all questions about FS2020 in one forum becomes a bit messy. So therefore we would like to ask you all to use the following guidelines when posting your questions:

    • Tag FS2020 specific questions with the MSFS2020 tag.
    • Questions about making 3D assets can be posted in the 3D asset design forum. Either post them in the subforum of the modelling tool you use or in the general forum if they are general.
    • Questions about aircraft design can be posted in the Aircraft design forum
    • Questions about airport design can be posted in the FS2020 airport design forum. Once airport development tools have been updated for FS2020 you can post tool speciifc questions in the subforums of those tools as well of course.
    • Questions about terrain design can be posted in the FS2020 terrain design forum.
    • Questions about SimConnect can be posted in the SimConnect forum.

    Any other question that is not specific to an aspect of development or tool can be posted in the General chat forum.

    By following these guidelines we make sure that the forums remain easy to read for everybody and also that the right people can find your post to answer it.

Not Solid

Messages
454
Country
wales
I am making some house and bungalow models for my project.

They are turning out fine with one exception and that is when I have placed my model in FSX with Instant Scenery and look through a window I cannot see the wall opposite the window I am looking through, yet when I slew round to that wall I see it but of course not the first one.

The walls ARE solid when viewing in Sketchup.

So, how to do I make the walls solid when seen through a window when viewed in FSX?

If you see what I mean?


Later...

On a test model I painted an inside wall with bricks and this DID show solid in FSX so would I be right in assuming that this is what you have to do, paint the inside walls with something??

Regards

Richard
 
Last edited:
Hi Richard,

How did you make the window? Is it a transparent texture or a colour?

By defaut SketchUp also does not make the wall double sided, so it could be the inside wall is not part of your model. When converting with ModelConverterX you can see if the inside wall is there or not.
 
Hi Arno, the windows are a 3rd party component from the Google 3D Warehouse as are the doors with the frames painted from the paint bucket.

I am not sure how to check in MCX if the walls are solid?

What I do see in MCX (and this is part of my other question regarding texture positioning) and that is although I have used the same tile for all the roof sides the roof texture appears 3 times in the Mass Texture Editor and the pictures when you hover over them is different in all.

Regards

Richard
 
Hi Richard:

Could you post a screenie of what you see in Sketchup with your textured object (ex: camera view of object in the "ISO" position) looking through the window with the inside wall showing ? :idea:

And could you also post a screenie from ModelConverterX (aka "MCX") of that same textured object in the same approximate "ISO" position and viewing angle after it has been exported as a *.DAE file, and then imported / viewed in MCX ? ;)


FYI: In MCX "3D Preview" tab, one can drag objects with the mouse cursor, and size them with the mouse wheel


BTW: Sketchup *.DAE files contain the 3D model and copies of all mapped textures in 1 package, so IIUC when MCX imports that type of file, one would not need to first assign the source or export folder path in MCX in Options > Texture Settings > Texture Search Path.

For that same reason, one would not likely end up with a mapped texture missing when a *.DAE file was imported into MCX, so if a wall previously mapped with a "Material" in Sketchup does not show, one might wonder if it was textured with a "2D" material that Sketchup could not export properly (doubtful), or there is a multi-planar geometry issue involving the textured inside wall position within the 3D model imported by MCX. :scratchch


GaryGB
 
Last edited:
Hi Arno:

I'm wondering if, in the inner mechanism of the MCX *.DAE import process, there may be an intermediate functional procedure comparable to certain aspects of the 3DS export/import process as described by Sketchup documentation ? :confused:


This Sketchup documentation page raised a couple of questions I also have on the MCX import of Sketchup export files; specifically, I believe it would be helpful for users to know whether MCX achieves an identical result when importing a:

1.) *.DAE file from Sketchup "Free" version

...versus a:

2.) *.3DS file from Sketchup Pro (payware) version

http://download.sketchup.com/Online...nd_Output/Import_and_Export/IO-3DS-Export.htm


"Export Two-Sided Faces: The Export two-sided faces checkbox is used to export faces twice, once for the front and once for the back. This option doubles the number of polygons in the resulting 3DS file and can slow down rendering. However, this option ensures that your model will appear more like it appears in SketchUp. Both faces will always render, and materials applied to front and back faces are preserved. When this option is selected, SketchUp will weld the vertices of the front faces together and the vertices of the back faces together according to the logic for texture mapping and welding outlined in the following Export texture maps option.

Export Standalone Edges: Standalone Line entities (lines not connected to any faces) are somewhat unique to SketchUp and not supported by many other 3D programs or the 3DS format. The Export standalone edges check box creates very thin rectangles that appear as standalone lines in the 3DS files. Unfortunately, this option can result in invalid texture coordinates requiring UV mapping to be re-applied before the scene is rendered. Also, certain exported standalone edge geometries can create invalid 3DS files altogether. The VRML format may better suit your needs if you need to export standalone edges.
Materials

Export Texture Maps: The Export texture maps checkbox is used to assign texture maps to 3DS materials whenever the corresponding SketchUp material uses a texture image.
The 3DS format allows only one UV mapping coordinate per vertex, meaning you can not have a different UV mapping on two faces that share the same vertex. Given this limitation of the 3DS format, a tradeoff between preserving texture coordinates and welding geometry is sometimes necessary and reflected in the following two sub-options: Favor Preserving texture coordinates and Favor Welding Vertices.

Favor (Preserving Texture Coordinates): When the Preserving texture coordinates option is selected, and UV mappings are different, the exporter breaks up geometry so that each coplanar group of polygons has its own set of vertices. In this case, vertices will not be welded together and no smoothing of faces will be evident. If UV mappings are identical, vertices will be welded.

Note - Use this option if the preservation of textures is of most importance.

Favor (Welding Vertices): When the Welding Vertices option is selected, the exporter will weld together vertices which will keep your geometry intact and allow smoothing to be preserved. However,
when two faces share the same vertex but have different UV mappings, this option will only allow one of the texture mappings to be preserved.

Note - Use this option if the preservation of smoothing and welding is of most importance.

Use “Color by Layer” Materials
: The 3DS file format does not support layers directly. The Use "Color by Layer" Materials checkbox is used to assign 3DS materials based on your model's layer assignments in SketchUp. Check this checkbox to export materials based on layers, such as when exporting to other rendering applications."




I've thus far found few descriptions for what the Sketchup preparation process might involve, but this was interesting (see Post #9):

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=80854


FYI: A more detailed Sketchup to 3DS Max export procedure by that same posting author is discussed here:

http://3dsmaxrendering.blogspot.com/search/label/sketch-up



IIUC, in Sketchup under View > Face Style one should set for either "Monochrome or "Shaded with Textures", both of which would display any faces that need "Reverse Faces" toggled so... all outside faces are white, and all inside faces are blue.



Also, I noted with interest what Bill Leaming said here about what one would do for rendering a 2-sided object if it were being modeled as an original (...or edited) inside GMAX or 3DS Max itself prior to export via the SDK's own mechanisms:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19821&highlight=normals



Thanks for any clarification and recommendations you could offer on how Sketchup users might best proceed when modeling and texturing objects that will have these 2-sided scenarios when they are ultimately intended to be processed via ModelConverterX. :teacher:

GaryGB
 
Last edited:
Gary to the rescue, well I might just have rescued myself here Gary.

Not being the most patient person in the world I decided to see if I could solve this "solid" problem and I think I may have done.

I will (try) describe what I did.

My building is a 2 storey L shape with a single storey extension.

Using the Rectangle Tool I drew my 3 shapes as per the footprint.

I then erased the joining line between the 2 shapes to give me my L in one.

So I now have 2 shapes, 1 L (2 storey) and 1 rectangle (the extension)

Using the "pencil" I then drew a second shape 3 inches inside these 2 shapes.

Then using the "push/pull" tool I raised my 2 "walls" to the required height.

It works a treat.

It does mean a little bit more faffing about but it worked.

My first effort when all awry as when adding the roof I inadvertently picked up the inner points instead of the outside points of my bases, but on my second go I zoomed in and was a bit more careful in selecting the correct point.

The 3rd party components added as normal.

Regards

Richard
 
Hi Richard:

I think I understand; but, I'm wondering if it may help us all be "on the same page" in the future if, in addition to posted screenies, we might also use some "common terminology" for roofs and buildings ? :o

http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Librar...ology-Miscellaneous_Roofing_Topics-A1936.html


Certainly learning Sketchup and tinkering as one's Muse inspires us to... can be a lot of fun. :p


In Sketchup, the Pencil used in the Camera > Parallel Projection mode can be a great help to some free-form modeling procedures (ex: of oddly-shaped buildings in GoogleEarth).

However, I'd respectfully suggest to all readers here, that it might be helpful to one's future future productivity (...and based on my own mishaps... one's stress level and thickness of one's remaining hair :eek: !) ...if one always uses Inferences along with the Offset tools when making inside walls that are intended to be "textured" . :idea:


Gary to the rescue, well I might just have rescued myself here Gary.


Often (for me at least), it's "Aidan Chopra to the rescue" ...when I've forgotten something I haven't used in a while ! :D


SketchUp: Keeping an eye out for inferences
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHHYCwSlUjk

SketchUp: Dusting off SketchUp's drafting tools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MtjHKxEW4M

SketchUp: Drawing an interior outline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6PODAj-RBg


NOTE: Using a common real-world interior wall "thickness" with the Offset tool makes it easier to later work with adding / editing roofs (rather than merely drawing a rectangle positioned immediately on the reverse or "inside" aspect of the outer wall to create a surface to be textured; the latter method can make it very difficult to avoid using the "wrong" set of vertices with the Pencil or Rectangle tools ...when inside walls are too "thin").

Personally, I'd avoid using the Rectangle tool if possible with rectangular buildings when making inside walls intended to be "textured" . ;)


The 3rd party components added as normal.
I'm not sure what "3rd party components" you meant there ? :confused:


PS: One must be careful using the word "normal" in a 3D modeling context; besides, once bitten, no 3D modeler will ever be "normal" again! :duck: :rotfl:


GaryGB
 
Last edited:
Thanks Gary, what I mean by 3rd party components are those objects such as door and windows that can be obtained from the 3D Warehouse.

Richard
 
I've found just creating a sketchup face, and then applying a texture on each side, usually works, but sometimes I have trouble getting sketchup to use the desired texture on the back face.

scott s.
.
 
Hi Gary,

I do not have SkeychUp Pro and ModelConverterX can not import 3DS files. So comparing them with DAE import would be hard.

I usually export to DAE with the default settings and that works fine. Exporting as KMZ will give all faces double sided and that is usually not preferred.
 
Hi Arno:

Thanks for the reply... that provides more ideas to our growing knowledge base about how to best prepare in Sketchup for an export to ModelConverterX. :)

GaryGB
 
Last edited:
Hi and to refer back to the initial question:
Quote
On a test model I painted an inside wall with bricks and this DID show solid in FSX so would I be right in assuming that this is what you have to do, paint the inside walls with something??
Unquote

I'd say the reply is:
Yes, you do.
Or would that be too simple an answer?
Have not had any problems doing it that way.
On the other hand, when looking through a (semi) transparent window, the way transparency is configured might influence what you see through it and show the landscape behind your object instead of your wall, if transparency is not made correctly.
 
Last edited:
Hi all, I think I may have been making hard work for myself.

My models only need to be a reasonable representation of the original but for some reason I thought that I needed to be able to see inside hence the problem.

On my first building I made my own windows and doors and fitted them to my building which consisted of a double wall and it was fine I could see the opposite wall through the window.

However when I came to my 2nd building I assumed that I would be able to use the doors and windows I had made for the first but no they would not break through the wall.

After a lot of faffing about I did work out how to to do it.

It then occurred to me,why was I putting myself through all this.

I started again and using the rectangle tool ( sorry Gary) I drew the shapes for my doors and windows and then I went to the CGTexture site, selected a couple of doors and windows and positioned them in the model with no problems and more importantly no need for editing.

I added roof tiles, wall textures and a tv aerial etc and bingo.

Of course if you are using textured doors and windows, which you can't see through anyway, there is no for a double skinned wall and of course no need to be making components.

So I guess it boils down to what it is you are trying to achieve. If you want a highly detailed building and especially of the interior then yes you need to be able to see through the windows, otherwise what would be the point.

Regards

Richard
 
Here are a couple of, not very good, pix of the 2 houses I have done so far.

The larger one has my doors and windows made as components and the smaller one with doors and windows from CGTextures.

Regards

Richard
 

Attachments

  • -2010-oct-9-001.jpg
    -2010-oct-9-001.jpg
    96.7 KB · Views: 624
  • -2010-oct-9-002.jpg
    -2010-oct-9-002.jpg
    97.4 KB · Views: 629
Hi Richard:

Those look good, and are likely to work well in FS ! :alert:


Regarding the Rectangle tool, what I meant was IMO, it's preferable to make buildings with rectangles initially drawn on the ground, extruded to blocks, and any interior walls then being made with the Offset tool... versus making the walls with the Rectangle tool.

That method can help minimize the challenges with texturing interior walls that are not parallel to the outside wall, which can create multi-planar Z-buffer artifacts and/or problems having them still visible after imported into MCX.


However, the Rectangle tool, IMHO, becomes the tool of choice when making "textured" 2D doors and windows on the exterior walls of buildings, as that is a preferred method over actual 3D framed and/or transparent doors and windows which could have a cumulative impact on FPS.


Extra 3D geometry for 3D doors and windows, transparent window panes etc. are as Phil Taylor of ACES once said, "computationally expensive" to the FS rendering engine, and IMHO (like some library and autogen objects) should only be used as a visual asset when it will be seen close up and/or while taxiing around on the ground nearby.

If we look at most 3D objects in FS, they usually have the windows and doors "baked" into the texture, and those textures are usually wrapped onto the building in pieces that fit 1 wall at a time (or are even able to wrap the entire building from "1" big texture image if pre-configured in one's graphics utility).


Some folks may construct the building in full 3D detail as you had, then use a photo-realistic illumination rendering utility (or simply use a graphics program) to put shadows where they would normally be seen, taking screenies to create the texture sheets for later use as materials.

Those detailed original 3D models can then be copied and their geometry reduced to minimize vertex count; when the textures are applied, the object may look adequate for the desired effect in an FS scenery relative to where one's aircraft viewpoint might see them.


I agree that Sketchup's Materials GUI is confusing at first; that was one of the few things that really frustrated me about Sketchup when I first began using it. ;)


If one imports and scales a texture for use, as soon as even "1" parameter is changed, Sketchup applies that change to all existing and subsequent mapped uses of that same named and defined "Material".

So one must create a new copy of that Material after it has been mapped anywhere on one's model if even "1" of its parameters (other than positioning) is to be changed. :banghead:

Before you know it, you've got multiple copies of a particular texture in your Materials collection.:mad:

<Sketchup Materials are like coat hangers... they multiply when you're not looking !> :eek:


Thankfully MCX deals with this multiple texture file / Material issue when it imports one's model by compositing them as images onto a minimum of FS texture sheets to reduce draw calls and file I/O. :wizard:


One of the advantages of creating one's buildings with wrap around textures is one can make a night texture ("aka "light map" with a *_lm.DDS or *_lm.BMP file name structure).

One can edit the desired lighting in the doors and windows on the exterior walls of buildings using a graphics program and put that alternate texture in the \Texture sub-folder along with the day texture; then FS can automatically swap the day texture file with the night texture (having the "_lm" file name suffix) between dusk and dawn. :p


I think you are on the right track... keep up the good work ! :)

GaryGB
 
Last edited:
It would help if there was better documentation about using textures as materials in SKU. I guess the main concept of SKU is to build complex models and use simple texturing, then using a rendering addon to create effects. Whereas in FS is helps to have simpler models and use textures for detail.

scott s.
.
 
Hi,

I have finished my tutorial about making a house for fsx with SketchUp. It also has a part about texturing.

I will put it online when I am back from vacation.
 
Top Man Arno, I look forward to reading it.

As an aside, I have been having some difficulty in finding many "cladding" textures. There are a few on Mayangs site but very few on CGTextures. I thought.

I was trawling through their website this morning looking again for something which said, Metal Cladding, Corrugated Sheeting, Metal Sheeting, anything.

Anyway I spotted "Plates" and I thought, why on earth would anyone want textures of plates, that's taking detailing to the extreme, anyway I thought I would check it out anyway and blow me down with a feather, plates is all about Cladding, Metal Sheeting, Corrugated Iron Sheets etc etc, doors roofs and walls.

Now why do they call it Plates and not Cladding etc.

Anyway I am happy to report that these textures apply to my buildings just fine with a straight forward download and a bit of positioning.

Praise be the Lord.

Regards

Richard
 
Back
Top