Shadow compilation error

[Horst18519]

I'm lost.

I didn't include VC shadows yet, but my folks beg for it, so I give it a try. But whenever I assign "volume shadow" to one or more of my textures I get loads of errors on export (see attached picture).

Anybody an idea?

 

[Au-MaV]

Hi
What design software you using?
For Vc shadows you should just need a ShadowMapReady tag in the xfiles header
also I thought volume shadow was for scenery but Im prob wrong
Cheers
Wozza

 

[Horst18519]

No, Scenery shadows are rendered by fsx automatically if you do not set the "no shadow" flag.
I use 3dsmax and do everything according to the SDK. Lots of other cockpits show shadows in DX10, but mine doesn't. I guess it's due to its complexity, but just wanted to check if this error message looks familiar to anyone.

 

[Horst18519]

Ok, I found this related thread and included the ShadowMapReadyTag in my file, I also have this in my x-file:

GuidToName {
...
...
}
ShadowMapReady {
	1;
}

Compilation works fine, but still there are no VCshadows in DX10-mode.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

A setting in FSX allows aircraft shadows to be turned off, and with 3DS the LOD and export tool has a checkbox in the generate a GUI section to enable shadows both worth checking , when you enable volume shadows all the parts on that material need to be manifold or the results are a nightmare , and completely unneeded , all that's required is an exterior.

It’s been my habit since FSX to rebuild the aircraft with the VC model being complete with the fuselage and main parts included, in any number of experiments i have run with stripped and complete VC models i get the same or so nearly the same framerates that i consider the "play value" of a complete VC outweighs the cost, i have been overruled on this on occasion in beta but i have not been proved wrong .

 

[Horst18519]

"Model has shadow map" is ticked as well in the LOD tool.
But I don't have "volume shadow" activated in my materials. As I read from your postings this should not be neccessary, is that right?

I have the shadows in external view, but not within the cockpit.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

Thats correct ,but one does need to have an exterior to cast shadows, in the traditional construction method one would strip every unseen poly from the VC, if this is done there will not be any mesh on the outside of the VC to cast a shadow.

A shadow is a duplicate part that is rendered above a surface with a semi transparent material on it , i included a pic with the vc of the accel f18 , you will see that there appear to be duplicated lines visible in the wireframe view , the light grey is the shadow model and is a duplicate of whatever has a material assigned that does not preclude shadows with the checkbox, it is slightly offset and is always on the shady side and slightly above the surface.

 

[Horst18519]

Thanks for that, Chuck. But as this is not at all what the SDK says I didn't quite get it.

For a test I use the same mdl for exterio and interior view. So I have enough stuff outside the cockpit that would cast shadows.
Now, do I need to clone those parts that shall give shadows? And why should I move them offset? And what exactly do you mean by semitransparent? A clone of the texture with opacity set to 50%?

Sorry, I seem like a dumb beginner but that is totally unexpected.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

Sorry to have confused the issue, the SDK dosnt cover this, i did a years worth of experiments when FSX RTM came out and this was an area of special attention as were material properties and how to exploit them, these shadow parts are generated by the sim automaticaly and i doing a lowsy job of explaining how, this pic might be a better exsample

In the upper erea you can see the box like shape of a motor home or RV and right beside it the grey lines are the shadow model generated by the sim , in the left you are seeing a building and inside of the garage is a Jeep , also note the copy of it being projected as well as the telephone poll behind the building with its twin rendered on the ground next to it, all the dark grey lines you see are shadows being rendered , the light & red lines are the original mesh, as you can see your sim works twice as hard when you allow scenery to cast ground shadows, turning off all shadows results in a substantial gain in FPS and the pic shows why.
In this pic the Cessna has aircraft shadows turned off, but as you see there is a duplication of all elements ( besides the Cessna ) and there is a transparent material applied ( by the sim ) to the shadow model that shades or darkens the underlying surfaces opposite to the suns direction of any object with a material applied that allows shadows .

The Simulator builds the shadow model for you , there are a number of ways to control them ( shadows ), one can create invisible ( transparent ) objects to cast shadows or a complete shadow model if you want to reduce the poly count of the sim generated shadow model,and turn off the shadows on all materials except the one applied to the shadow model you built, there are a multitude of tweaks that one can exploit but the tweak most often used is not to display VC shadows period...

 

[Horst18519]

Well, thanks for this nice cover of fsx shadows. I didn't know that fsx actually renders complete duplicates of objects if you turn shadows on.

But, erm, I knew how to use or prevent shadows in sceneries, I made quite a couple of them - it's the VC shadows I cannot get to work.
As I said before, I've got shadows on the exterior of my aircraft, no problem at all. It's just those VC shadows that won't show up whatever I do.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

The modality used by the sim to create the VC shadows is the same, complete duplication.

We are left still with the original problem no VC shadows, to determine if there is a problem with your use of the material editor create a 10 cm box and apply a standard material to it then place this in your VC for export to flight sim , look for a shadow , if there is one your material settings are at fault , if there is none and other aircraft do render VC shadows there must be a file properties problem.

We are assuming you are running Vista and are using a DX 10 card of course.

 

[Horst18519]

I have full working shadows in the default VCs like C172 and Baron, but no shadow at all in my own aircraft, even not with an additional box inside. Nothing casts a shadow.

So I guess I have a general problem with my project.

Just for a last clarification: Do I or do I not have to tick the "volume shadow" box in order to have those VC shadows? If I use it I get the error message shown above.

Maybe the problem is the size of my aircraft MDL, it grew to almost 20MB.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

" Do I or do I not have to tick the "volume shadow" box in order to have those VC shadows " no you do not, but do try assigning an fsx material and enable Volume shadows to see if there are any , it could provide a clue .

There are no exsamples of models that large in any i have worked on , i have no idea what the effect would be , how many parts are you exporting ? and what kind of poly count and texture load ? , and what is it even ..

 

[Horst18519]

It's this one here: http://www.forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?showtopic=19580

135.000 polys, 90MB of textures (105 bitmaps), 870 objects. Most of this goes into the 3D panel and detailed cabin.

I start to think this may just be too much for fsx to calculate shadows...

EDIT: I tried to use the "volume shadow" option on some materials, but as soon as I tick it on one of them (doesn't matter which one) I get the error message above.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

Those errors don't prevent a compilation of the model, how about a screen capture of the model properties " custom " dropdown please.

 

[Horst18519]

Here you go. I also included one of the materials, so you can see that I didn't activate any shadow options there. If I do see error message on top of this page.
BTW: I did try that mdl created with all those error messages and it didn't show shadows either. Maybe I could try to tick "volume shadow" on all my materials and try it then?

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

Just on a hunch try exporting your model without any attach points on the interior model, i associate these with a number of other phenomenon and would not be surprised to add one more.
There is a process of elimination to go through to diagnose these things where you eliminate all the possibilities , the screen captures of your properties indicate all is as it should be and you had followed all the needed steps , all thats left is something weird , a poison part or material , attach points on the interior model are something i avoid like a plague , and your sim is obviously not at fault , export a few pieces of your interior and see if there is any difference , export another file and see if there is any difference,
From the results you can find out if there is a poison part , if there are too many parts, loading a known shadow producing model and exporting will determine if a missing shader or .dll might be an issue , without exporting your file myself i can’t really tell you much more than a diagnostic approach will resolve this.

 

[n4gix]

Here are a few thoughts to consider carefully before investing a lot of time in this.

1) interior vc shadowing requires manifold geometry, period. This adds to the absolute vertex count of any project.

2) This form of shadowing only works when running FSX in "DX10 Preview" mode, which is an incomplete and inefficient kludge at best.

3) Phil Taylor announced last week that for FSvNext ACES will be abandoning this type of shadowing since it's proven to be very poor in the final analysis.

4) Given all the above, any time invested now for a feature that very few will ever notice, and will require extensive rework on the model to make it FSvNext compatible may not be worth the return on investment in the long run...

 

[Horst18519]

Thanks to the both of you, and expecially thankyou, Bill, because I had been persuaded by betatesters to give them the shadows and I didn't want to put a lot of time into this. If it's ok with you I will quote your points in my betaforum to show them that it's not something that will be standard in FS-future but an abandoned blind alley.

Thanks for helping me, I will try the shadows in my next (much less complex) aircraft, but for now I will happily forget shadows in my cockpit.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

The greater whole of your users will never notice , something like a third of users can benefit from VC shadows if they choose to .

A caveat > what Phil said is that VOLUME SHADOWS will no longer be used, this is not an elimination of VC shadows but one of 2 means of creating them if i read it correctly , this remains to be clarified and will be .

Bills ascertation that VC Shadows require Manifold Geometry is based on the SDK and the instructions / discussions held during the development conference on how to use volume shadows, this material does require Manifold Geometry to use, a single open edge and you have a mess on screen , Aces had immense trouble getting this to work and through the two service packs refined the shadow rendering to the extent that non manifold geometry will cast a shadow, it does require that there be painted poly's to do so.

FSNext is due for release during late 2010, add to that the transition time for those who don’t plan to buy a new computer to run it and you have got a product with legs ...
The decision to disable VC shadows in your instance is probably a good one , the texture load and .mdl file size you are working with is about three times what is normally found in payware GA aircraft , a great many mid range graphics cards are going to be struggling to load the plane and all ground and scenery textures and not duplicating the interior will improve DX10 performance.


BTW , did you try exporting without any attach points on the interior model ? , morbid curiosity on my part , if you havent done so
i imagine you will have before the end of your beta tests.