Version 1.39 Feedback

[scruffyduck]

Please post your feedback on the public beta here.

Thanks

 

[Pyscen]

Backwards Compat.

Jon,

I understand that the beta version isn't backwards compat. Does this mean that the full release version will also NOT be backwards compat? I hate to assume... and you know the old saying...

Pyscen (Doug)

 

[jvile]

I am not sure the term backward compatible is correct. It might be better said that we are forward compatible. You can open any exist airport with V1.39.7 and save. However at that time you should not try to use a earlier version on the new saved .ade

Each newer version of ADE exposes additional option type coding never seen before. The code is in previous versions but not exposed on the open grid. We make changes in ADE so the user can get to the FSX code that has been there all along but now we have away of working with it.

 

[Farfy]

Good day Gentlemen.
I have downloaded ADE 1.39.07, I opened my current airport, deleted the ILS I had put in with earlier version, then put in new ILS saved my project (new name to be safe) and recompiled and Installed, in game the GPS now lets me select the ILS approach I was also able to add a VOR and find it in my GPS
I also moved a few taxi ways around added a few more object and I saw no compiling problems here.

Thank you great tool

H_Farfy

 

[scruffyduck]

Good day Gentlemen.
I have downloaded ADE 1.39.07, I opened my current airport, deleted the ILS I had put in with earlier version, then put in new ILS saved my project (new name to be safe) and recompiled and Installed, in game the GPS now lets me select the ILS approach I was also able to add a VOR and find it in my GPS
I also moved a few taxi ways around added a few more object and I saw no compiling problems here.

Thank you great tool

H_Farfy

Thanks for the feedback

 

[scruffyduck]

I am not sure the term backward compatible is correct. It might be better said that we are forward compatible. You can open any exist airport with V1.39.7 and save. However at that time you should not try to use a earlier version on the new saved .ade

Each newer version of ADE exposes additional option type coding never seen before. The code is in previous versions but not exposed on the open grid. We make changes in ADE so the user can get to the FSX code that has been there all along but now we have away of working with it.

Jim is correct. My use of terms is not good. So for the avoidance of doubt. Current (and future) versions of ADE will load project files created by older version (post 1.20 for sure) However no version can be expected to load project files created by a later version.

Does that make sense or have I made it worse

 

[mikesflight]

No problem installing v1.39 I too have used an airport I have been working with in v1.37. It did not have an ILS so I was delighted to be able to try out the new add ILS approaches in v1.39 (I have successfully handcrafted ILS approaches in FS9 previously).

The ILS approach installed without any problem. I then created an IFR flight with atrocious flying conditions to my new airport setup and ATC vectored me onto the approach and the runway perfectly. The ILS waypoints displayed on the GPS screen.

Great work. Very impressed.

Cheers
Mike

 

[buedi]

I am currently trying to figure out how to create Approaches. The Video Tutorials helped alot and they are really well done. It´s positive that you are speaking clearly and slow, so even non native speakers with bad english knowledge have a chance to follow them

But I struggle a bit with the Approach legs. I am trying to create a GPS Apporoach according to the Charts I have from Eurocontrol. I am slowly figuring out which Leg Types I have to use, but according to the Approach Charts you have to have a specific Altitude at the Waypoints. If I add a CF Waypoint I can´t enter a Altitude.

When I look at this post, which shows a Approach in XML there´s a Altitude in the CF Legs. How is this done in ADE?

Edit: I also added a Waypoint called LUPOL which I see only once in the Waypoint Liste, but when I create a new Leg it´s 3 times in that list. If this could be a bug and you are interested, I can send you my ADE file via PM.

 

[scruffyduck]

Thanks for the feedback especially on the tutorials. I hope that Jim will step in to cover Approach Code.

I will check the bug regarding waypoints. Which list do you mean - the one accessed from Lists or the one accessed from the new leg dialog? They should be the same.

 

[buedi]

Hi Jon,

you have a PM ;-)
That´s what I mean. The 2 Lists (Lists -> Waypoints and under "Add Approach Leg") are different in my Project.

In the Menu Lists -> Waypoints LUPOL is included only once, which should be correct. But when I create a new Approach Leg it is shown 3 times. Don´t ask me how I could show that 3 times in that list

And a Tut to create Approach Legs would be awesome. I am learning the whole day now how these things work by reading Charts, loading different Airports in ADE and look at the results in FSX. But at the current state I don´t think that I will ever get it. But that´s always when you try to figure out something completely new. At some point it makes "click" and you have it. But Tutorials can save a lot of time

 

[jvile]

But I struggle a bit with the Approach legs. I am trying to create a GPS Apporoach according to the Charts I have from Eurocontrol. I am slowly figuring out which Leg Types I have to use, but according to the Approach Charts you have to have a specific Altitude at the Waypoints. If I add a CF Waypoint I can´t enter a Altitude.

You do not enter a altitude for a T_Waypoint. A T_Waypoint is a fix in space. The altitude shown on the chart at the T_Waypoint is on the chart as you cross over or pass the T_Waypoint. You need 2 different T_Waypoints in the list. You will use one of them once and the other one 2 times in your approach code.

A GPS Approach uses legtypes of

IF > TF > TF/Runway

so you need 1 IF legtype, 2 TF legtypes which the last TF is the runway.

The first thing ADE does is creates the airport header where all the information goes that ATC needs which will be where your approach altitude and missed approach altitude are listed. In the header is what type approach such as GPS and other information taking it from your chart including the FAF T_Waypoint




Now you need to make the line draw for the GPS receiver which is IF > TF > TF/Runway

IF = the IAF T_Waypoint



TF = the FAF T_Waypoint



TF = the runway




You use the FAF T_Waypoint 2 times. 1 time in the airport header and 1 time in the line draw of the GPS.

You do not need altitudes listed in the IF TF type legs since it is in the airport header.

I also suggest opening any stock airport that has a type approach you want and see how FSX makes an approach as the example. My pictures are from KIAD which has GPS approaches.

Writing an approach is a 2 step process. You must create the approach header which is what ATC works with. The header allows you to fill in what is needed that ATC understands and you get that off your chart.

Now you write the Line draw as seen with the GPS receiver which is the IF > TF > TF

Once again, open up any default airport that has an approach like you are working on. Compare what FSX writes as per the ARINC424 and what you want to write off your chart.

DO NOT start writing exotic approaches until you have a good understanding of how a ILS approach is written. The ILS is the backbone fundamentals of FSX and you must know how to write a ILS approach learning also how to place the T_Waypoints properly before you venture into the other type approaches which are more complicated.

 

[kagazi]

Hello Jon/Jim and everyone that contributed to this beta 1.39. First, let me complement you once again on ADE. I've been using ADE consistently since v1.2 and I continue to be in awe at the power of this program.

Jim, I too have been tinkering with the new approach module within 1.39. While the video tutorials were nicely done, I would suggest including a step-by-step tutorial (video or otherwise) on including RNAV(GPS) AND ILS approach code w/transitions for a new (or existing) runway using an FAA published plate for v1.4.

With recent developments at MS and as time goes on I suspect the community will be called upon to update more and more fsx airports to bring them up to current conditions including adding new runways and ILS w/approaches such as the case with KIAD, which is the project that I am currently working on.

I have used the Beta and tutorials to successfully add an ILS w/approach. Modifying the approach to match a published plate was another story. While I finally figured out what the IAF, IF AND FAF T_WAYPOINTS were by examining newly published plates that do not currently exist in fsx and comparing existing approach code to existing plates, this was done by hand. I was not able to use ADE to figure it out. I believe an FAA (or EU equivalent) approach plate example (GPS and ILS) would have helped greatly.

Thank you again for all your efforts with ADE.

kagazi

 

[scruffyduck]

Hi kagazi and thanks for your comments. We are very aware that we have not explained how to create approach code. Also we hope that before we go to the public release of 1.40 the approach designer will be more complete. In particular I am now working on creating the visual representation of the approach in the display.

Jim is our guru on approaches and we are talking about the best way to include his knowledge and expertise into the documentation for ADE.

 

[buedi]

@Jim: Thanks for explaining that with that much Detail and even Screenshots. I created my GPS Approach with several Waypoints (all defined as CF) which seems to be wrong. And that Approach does not even draw a line in my GPS (it did in a "earlier Version", but that´s another Story). Why I asked about the Altitude is because of the Thread I mentioned where in the XML there´s a Altitude Parameter. The other cause why I asked about the Altitude Parameter is because the GPS/RNAV Approach Charts of EDJA consists of a IAF, TF, IF and FAF until you reach the Runway. And each of these Legs has a different Height associated.
But I will try to start on a lower level as you suggested and will try to implement the ILS Approach of EDJA first. The cause why I started with the GPS Approach is that it looked easier to me creating several Waypoints than starting with the ILS Approach of EDJA which has no Waypoints at all. It seems all to be relative to the DME ALD if I read the charts correctly and I had no clue how to start at all.
I see, there´s much to learn.

To all asking what all the Leg Types mean, I found a quite nice Post from a very generous person describing them here.

@Kagazi
I also thought about asking what you did. But I did not have the heart to do it because the Approach Designer in ADE seems to have been so much work to develop and I think the Devs have so much more work to do.

@Jon
I am really looking forward to a graphical representation of the Approaches we can create within ADE. If it will be capable of displaying the Approach in a similar (or exactly the same) way as the GPS does it will make things much easier and will flatten the learning curve alot (I think). This way you can alter a setting and see which effect it has in a matter of seconds instead of Minutes (Saving, Compiling, loading FSX, loading a flight and seeing in the GPS that I failed)

 

[scruffyduck]

I am really looking forward to a graphical representation of the Approaches we can create within ADE. If it will be capable of displaying the Approach in a similar (or exactly the same) way as the GPS does it will make things much easier and will flatten the learning curve alot (I think). This way you can alter a setting and see which effect it has in a matter of seconds instead of Minutes (Saving, Compiling, loading FSX, loading a flight and seeing in the GPS that I failed)

That is certainly what we are now working on

 

[jvile]

Why I asked about the Altitude is because of the Thread I mentioned where in the XML there´s a Altitude Parameter. The other cause why I asked about the Altitude Parameter is because the GPS/RNAV Approach Charts of EDJA consists of a IAF, TF, IF and FAF until you reach the Runway. And each of these Legs has a different Height associated.

That has nothing to do with the line draw of the GPS receiver or what is needed in each leg type. You are trying to make a GPS approach a ILS with Glide Slope. A GPS approach does not control the airplanes vertical height descent. That is the Pilots responsibility as he reads the approach chart on final.

If a T_Waypoint is listed then the Pilot must make sure his descent angle placed him over the T_Waypoint at the proper altitude. You can add as many legtype TF's as the approach chart shows for each descent step in the ADE Approach mode but you are not flying a ILS but a RNAV or GPS approach.

I posted a new post on the legtype definitions and a proper attachment that shows the graphical view of each leg type.

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13751

Rather then fill up this thread with approach code issues we might want to move over to my new post.

 

[buedi]

Sorry, I did not wanted to clutter this thread. My problem is, that I am new to FSX (flying in general) and in Airport Design. I thought that you need the Altitudes for the Approach Codes so the AI can fly it too, which seems to be wrong. But I will switch over to the new thread ;-)

 

[kagazi]

Hello Jon: Some additional feedback. I hope what I provide is not taken to be critical. My intent is to be helpful and I really do appreciated ALL the effort and expertise that has gone into this project.

I created an ILS for 1L-19R at KIAD and used ADE to include the simple approach. I then used ADE in approach mode and the FAA plate to modify the simple approach that was created with the ILS. I believe the T_WPs that were originally created are still shown in the gps mode even though I changed the name. When I changed the name according to the FAA plate I see both names superimposed.

I decided to start over by deleting the ILS, but the approach which was originally created remained - maybe since I changed some characteristics? I recall on the video that when the ILS is deleted, the approach gets deleted as well, but this may not apply when changes have been made. I was able to successfully delete the approach using the delete approach command.

This project was originally created using v1.37 and I saved it to v1.39 prior to working with the approach creater.

 

[scruffyduck]

Hello Jon: Some additional feedback. I hope what I provide is not taken to be critical. My intent is to be helpful and I really do appreciated ALL the effort and expertise that has gone into this project.

I created an ILS for 1L-19R at KIAD and used ADE to include the simple approach. I then used ADE in approach mode and the FAA plate to modify the simple approach that was created with the ILS. I believe the T_WPs that were originally created are still shown in the gps mode even though I changed the name. When I changed the name according to the FAA plate I see both names superimposed.

I decided to start over by deleting the ILS, but the approach which was originally created remained - maybe since I changed some characteristics? I recall on the video that when the ILS is deleted, the approach gets deleted as well, but this may not apply when changes have been made. I was able to successfully delete the approach using the delete approach command.

This project was originally created using v1.37 and I saved it to v1.39 prior to working with the approach creater.

No worries - we appreciate all comments and suggestions.

If you have modified an ILS approach that ADE produced and subsequently deleted it then ADE may not be able to find it. It relies on identifying the approach by name which, if I understand it, you have changed. If that is changed then it will not be identified. Also it will delete the user defined way points. If you wish to delete the approach and write your own then you would need to delete the approach yourself including the user defined terminal waypoints (unless you plan to use them yourself for you replacement approach).

 

[cattz]

Regarding the approach code for an ILS, if you intend to have a graphical image of this does that mean that the waypoints can be moved / dragged to new positions the same as other objects in ADE? or am I expecting somethings to be just too easy for me?