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Microsoft flight released

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A reminder.

This forum will not condone the hacking of Flight files or discussion of it's file formats. That would be a direct violation of the terms of Microsoft, and if allowed, might lead to the demise of this forum through legal action.

Microsoft's business model has changed significantly concerning Flight. Like it or not, most forums will not allow this, nor will major website libraries carry such disallowed content.

Continued discussion of Flight file formats, until such time as an open SDK is available, will lead to infractions or banning from the forums. I'm only going to give one warning... and this is it!

Dick
 
Microsoft Flight is based around, more or less, Microsoft ESP. Where FSX had a lot of 'legacy' stuff in it from FS2004 and earlier versions with a splash of ESP mixed in, Flight has cleaned up a lot of the mess and leaves only the necessary bits.

Well, ESP is 99.99% the same as FSX. So being based on ESP or FSX would mean the same.

I guess as long as no SDK information is available, we can't judge as developers how well the platform has been designed. So I will just wait and see. If we get more information about a SDK, I will judge the platform. Until then, I am happy developing for FSX.
 
I am happy developing for FSX.


I still love designing for FS9. I guess I am growing old in my ways. Its wild to see people still coming in and asking how to find the SDK for FS2002 and FS2000. Still life left in these older sims.


I could never see the sense in totally redesigning the wheel every 3 years or so. Relearning how to make planes, relearning how to make scenery, relearning new gauge code. That got old really fast.
 
Well, ESP is 99.99% the same as FSX. So being based on ESP or FSX would mean the same.

ESP by itself is more clean-cut in terms of code and API compatibility than FSX is. FSX aircraft will run on ESP, but FS2004 aircraft will not run on ESP, where they would run on FSX.

My guess is that FSX contained a work-in-progress or development build for ESP which was later developed into a separate FSX engine, and a refactored version into ESP (and Lockheed's Prepar3D). On the front end, ESP is similar to FSX.

I won't go into any more details concerning the reverse engineering of Flight's file formats and memory structure, however, I must make a statement that I totally disagree with the secrecy. At most, it would be a violation of Flight's EULA, and the remote possibility of a few software patents which aren't valid in a lot of parts of the world.

Most of the obvious information can be found through simple tools and reverse engineering anyway, there isn't any major insider knowledge required.

Publishing hacked files or cryptographic keys (for illicit signing of code to run within Flight) is a different matter, IMO, and it should not be tolerated.

Microsoft may have changed their business model to adopt F2P and to only allow add-ons to be purchased through their Marketplace, but right now, we don't have a road map of any new add-ons on the horizon, and Microsoft has no plans to allow other developers to enter the Marketplace to sell their add-ons with a certain commission (like Apple does with their App Store). That's one of the major causes I can see becoming the downfall of Flight in the short term.

Their intended market is clearly not us, and they're more focused on making money than pleasing customers.

Which means they're going to fail. The first rule of economics: You're going to make money BY pleasing customers! ;)
 
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I can certainly understand the comments which are based on the disappointment at not being able to develop for Microsoft Flight, but what seems hypocritical are the comments faulting Microsoft for wanting to make money on addons.

After all, in the past Microsoft spent millions developing Flight Simulator XX, and third party developers took advantage of the SDKs and freeware tools made available here at FSDeveloper and elsewhere, not only to add to the flightsim community freeware libraries as was the tradition for many years, but also to eventually capitalize on the flightsim community, often making much more profit from Flight Simulator than the company which spent vast resources developing it.

Yet Microsoft is now being villainized for wanting to capitalize on their own investment this time, just like so many other software developers do.

While I see nothing wrong in third party payware development in general, the elitist attitudes seem unfounded considering that without Microsoft's development of Flight Simulator XX, there would be no opportunity for payware addons for Flight Simulator XX in the first place.

Just as I find most payware addons to be unnecessary to my enjoyment of Flight Simulator XX, I will not be spending any money on Microsoft Flight either. However, I do wish Flight Simulator XX payware addon developers and their new competitors for the flight simmers' discretionary funds, Microsoft Flight, the best of luck in today's economy.

Yes, it is a disappointment that with Flight, Microsoft has parted ways with the development community regardless of whether we are freeware or payware developers. But I think it is important for us all to remember and acknowledge that like FSDeveloper.com, Microsoft has also freely provided us all with the SDKs and tools necessary to expand the previous flightsim worlds, of which so many are now swearing their preferences to over Microsoft Flight.

Cool deal huh?
Thank You Microsoft and FSDeveloper.com!

Cheers
Gman
 
I can certainly understand the comments which are based on the disappointment at not being able to develop for Microsoft Flight, but what seems hypocritical are the comments faulting Microsoft for wanting to make money on addons.

After all, in the past Microsoft spent millions developing Flight Simulator XX, and third party developers took advantage of the SDKs and freeware tools made available here at FSDeveloper and elsewhere, not only to add to the flightsim community freeware libraries as was the tradition for many years, but also to eventually capitalize on the flightsim community, often making much more profit from Flight Simulator than the company which spent vast resources developing it.

I won't criticize the goal of Microsoft to make money off MSFlight. It is their perfect right to do so, however, I doubt the current set of additional content (3 aircraft and a single set of scenery) is going to be very profitable in the long run.

The FS2002/FS9/FSX series has been succesful because beginning flight simmers could just start out with a mouse and keyboard, purchasing add-on aircraft, software and hardware as they progressed and as their flight sim needs saw fit. This, in turn, made for a large market for FS add-ons, and because of that availability of add-on content, FS9 and FSX sales perpetuated, FS9 now literally going for a decade.

Food for thought: What would have happened if Microsoft would have put only FS9 or FSX on the market, and completely locked it down like they did with Flight? Would the two packages have been as succesful as they were?

I'm not making a point that the Flight SDK or any add-ons should be available for everyone and for nothing. Microsoft doesn't need a free lunch, but they could at least give us the opportunity to develop add-ons which can be placed in their (commercial) Marketplace.

Additionally, they can earn quite a few bucks by putting a 'Development' or 'Professional' version of Flight on the market for a comparable price to FSX, which doesn't require code signing and has a bundled SDK. This can both be a development platform for parties who want to develop for Flight (and can submit their add-ons to the Marketplace) as well as a more advanced 'simulator' for people who are experienced with either Flight or FSX and want to do more with it. That way, the free version of Flight can also be a major stepping stone to the 'Flight Professional' version, which can be compatible with a lot of (maybe even existing) add-ons on the market, and eventually as an FSX replacement for the coming decade.

In short, I'm not criticizing the choice that Microsoft makes by only offering its add-ons exclusively through the Windows Live Marketplace. I do however have my doubts about the fact that no third parties are allowed in that Marketplace, and if that will work in favor of Microsoft's sales in the long run.

A similar model, with third parties in a store-like platform, has been employed very successfully through Apple's App Store and Valve's Steam.
 
Ah so I see, so theyve just taken flight and got selfish with it...sort of like the universal usb to micro-usb that companies abuse by designing their own connector for when its clearly the same thing.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
 
If you look through the Flight data files closely, there's enough evidence that it may support a lot more complex things like system simulation, custom flight models (defined in XML for each aircraft individually) and more expansions, since basically everything in Flight is defined in those data files.

So they basically revamped the flightmodel (XML data files). Sounds great!



This forum will not condone the hacking of Flight files or discussion of it's file formats. That would be a direct violation of the terms of Microsoft, and if allowed, might lead to the demise of this forum through legal action.

Oh come on!

*Throws hands in the air and leaves thread*
 
So they basically revamped the flightmodel (XML data files). Sounds great!

All I'm going to say is, more info to be found in CoreContent.pak/SimObjects/Airplanes/<Aircraft Name>/Sim.

Read up on some info about the SPB format, as it's not human readable but a compiled (SimProp Binary, ESP format) XML file.

There are some ways to decompile them but you'd need knowledge of the sim's internals.

With regards to hacking Flight files, I suspect we'd be reasonably safe, because, I repeat again:

MODIFY ANY FILES AND FLIGHT WILL NOT RUN.

So even if we manage to completely decompile the content library, it's completely useless since we'd be unable to alter anything and inject our own content. (Believe me, I have tried already.)
 
Guys

This thread is going way of topic. It seems to be turning into a hackers guide to Flight. Dick has already commented on the position regarding hacking.
 
Guys

This thread is going way of topic. It seems to be turning into a hackers guide to Flight. Dick has already commented on the position regarding hacking.

I have to disagree: I, for once haven't posted anything that isn't blatantly obvious or could be figured out with 2 or 3 Google searches. Heck, that's the way I found it out *myself* after downloading Flight...

If someone were to post a guide or a tutorial on how to crack Flight's file protection and modify content, we could be in the danger zone, but as of yet, that's not possible. And even if it was, it would be comparable to running home-brew software on a game console or jailbreaking an iPhone: In itself, it doesn't allow any piracy whatsoever.

It may be a violation of Flight's EULA, but FSDeveloper is not legally bound by that.

Would you rather we go back 'on topic' and aimlessly rant away at Flight, continuing to whine about how good FSX suddenly is (oh, wait, it's dreadfully slow, but at least I can instally my own aircraft!), or should we just try and keep this a constructive and technical discussion from which both FSD and Flight may benefit?

Forgive me for being blunt, but if disclosing information that is even this trivial is considered hacking, it starts to border on paranoia for an army of lawyers from Microsoft. As I said, when someone were to post a means to insert 'unsigned' content into Flight and make it run, we're in hacking territory. Reverse enigneering anything that's on the surface, is not.

... Or don't tell me you have never taken a VCR apart just to see how it worked on the inside. ;)
 
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I see Flight no longer has Helo's.

Well, at least on launch.



<-- whispers 'Guilligans Island'


:D
 
I have to disagree: I, for once haven't posted anything that isn't blatantly obvious or could be figured out with 2 or 3 Google searches. ...

Thankfully, Google isn't (yet) the arbiter or what is permissible or ethical in this world ... for example a Google search quite frequently brings up illegal download links .... you follow my argument.

The issue is not Microsoft's right to make content, or make a non-flightsim fightsim.

The game is their property ... they alone allow developers to make content.
...

[retracted ... just in case I might have breached an NDA] Never post in Anger!
..

I will contract the original post to this: There are VERY good reasons that a number of developers are unhappy with Microsoft about the way this was handled. It goes well beyond not being able to develop content for Flight!
 
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Ah so I see, so theyve just taken flight and got selfish with it...sort of like the universal usb to micro-usb that companies abuse by designing their own connector for when its clearly the same thing.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk

So if you were in the position of Joshua Howard, would you see it as a smart business model to lose all that money by letting 3PD make all the money when you could? The MSFS business model just wasn't cutting it for them in today's economy, etc. The smart idea in their opinion was to change things. There's no reason to flame them for their decisions. Just stick with FSX or whatever you use most and be happy that you can still enjoy it. :D
 
Brandon,

This is a Developer forum.

If you think in that context, and realise that some members may have been more "involved" with Flight! at an intimate level than you would be aware.

Then, if you then consider that there is now no 3rd party development, and postulate that that was not made clear to all parties from the outset.

All that is left to do is join the dots. . . . . . . . Can you join the dots now?

No-one is questioning whether the decision is good for Microsoft. It clearly is.
 
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So if you were in the position of Joshua Howard, would you see it as a smart business model to lose all that money by letting 3PD make all the money when you could? The MSFS business model just wasn't cutting it for them in today's economy, etc. The smart idea in their opinion was to change things. There's no reason to flame them for their decisions. Just stick with FSX or whatever you use most and be happy that you can still enjoy it. :D

Well said Brandon.


hcornea said:
Brandon,

This is a Developer forum.

If you think in that context, and realise that some members may have been more "involved" with Flight! at an intimate level than you would be aware.

Then, if you then consider that there is now no 3rd party development, and postulate that that was not made clear to all parties from the outset.

All that is left to do is join the dots. . . . . . . . Can you join the dots now?

No-one is questioning whether the decision is good for Microsoft. It clearly is.


Sorry mate, I for one see no dots to be joined, only straight lines and vague allegations.

If you or someone else were sub-contractors working on Flight! and Microsoft somehow committed a breach of contract, you should be seeking legal action to get whatever you are due for services rendered, not making vague comments in a "developer forum".

As for postulating that Microsoft would forever reprise its dismal business models of past releases wherein they spent millions developing new platforms and then simply hand them over to third party payware developers to capitalize on, its a lot like closing time at the bar when the lights come on, and the bartender shouts "you don't have to go home, you just can't stay here".

The elite third party payware developers can continue to capitalize on the FS9 and FSX flightsim communities as long as someone is willing to spend their discretionary funds on payware addons.

Best of luck with that. :D

Cheers
Gman
 
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