• Which the release of FS2020 we see an explosition of activity on the forun and of course we are very happy to see this. But having all questions about FS2020 in one forum becomes a bit messy. So therefore we would like to ask you all to use the following guidelines when posting your questions:

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Good Freeware bad for business?

More or less freeware?

  • We designers should make as much freeware as possible

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Good AddOns should have their price

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
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no offence taken

Martin,
i did not take any offence. don't worry:)

The software I am attempting brings together several facilities available separately in other offerings, some free, some not. I used to program in VB5/6 then moved onto a 'hands off' role so did not learn VB.NET. Don't hold your breath though, summer is coming so it's golf and proper flying rather than keyboard bashing.
I may well publish details on the tools forum when I get further along with the development.
 
It all depends on how much time you have

I started this hobby (obsession) a couple of years ago when I purchased FS9 for around 25 dollars. Now after spending hundreds of dollars on hardware and software enhancements ( a never ending quest, I need, yes need a new gaming computer, 30 inch monitor, and IR-Track ) and downloading gigabytes (my FSX folder is now 39 gig) of freeware I think I have a good handle on this subject.

Without the wonderful gifts of design software developed as freeware by the members of this forum this hobby would never have became what it is today. It is their software that have made it possible for others to expand their hobby into creating all of the small scenery objects that add so much to FS. Just as in model railroading. for many, it is more fun to create the scenery than it is to run the trains.

Like so many in this hobby I have migrated to FSX because of the scenery, which by it's self is good but becomes great when you add a few payware enchancements to act as the canvas for all of the little scenery downloads that others were generous enough to share with us.

It is the freeware, not payware, that is the backbone of FS. Without the freeware this hobby would never have grown into what it is today.

Payware has it's place. It is best used as a time/effort saver or to add that special scene to your sim. I have purchased FSGenesis for its mesh, UT for its scenery, and Ground Environment X for its landclass. They are used as the underpainting for all of the wonderful scenery downloads out there. They were expensive but they add so much to the quality of the scenery.

I hate to think of how long it would take me to recreate all of the work that those 3 programs provide. They are more than worth the money that I spent on them.

Now when it comes to aircraft I find that most payware is overpriced. Unlike scenery, aircraft are toys to be collected, and it is hard to justify paying more than 20 dollars for a toy that is just going to sit on your hard drive.

I see no reason for downloaded aircraft to cost more than 20 dollars. Isn't it better to make 6 dollars off of 10K downloads than 25 dollars off of 1K downloads.

Just look at how many people downloaded the Aerosoft Super Cub saying "What the heck, for 10 dollars I cant go wrong." It was a win-win for everyone. Not only did they get a great airplane it also showed them just how great Aerosoft products are.

After being burned several times downloading Payware Aircraft I have decided that too many of them are not worth the money it takes to collect them.

When it comes to FSX freeware aircraft most of them are migrated FS9 aircraft and require being reworked to make them right, but that's another hobby, isn't it.

So it looks like our hobby needs both freeware and payware. Freeware to spur on creative development and inspiration and payware for those projects that get out of hand and grow into full time jobs.


I must admit that my FSX when combined with both payware and freeware has turned me into a true "Scenery Slut". Now I fly low and slow with my head stuck out the window and a great big grin on my face while searching through that payware scenery for that freeware gravel stip hidden in the woods somewhere along the river.

You heavy iron boys can keep your jets and angels 30. As you speed by up there where good detailed scenery isn't that important, I'll be down here at 1500 feet counting the trees and watching the whales spout off of Orca Island.

~~ Dale ~~
 
just a little teaser. simon853 mentioned "MyFace", you're creaming two things into one.:D can't get better than that. it's actually mySpace and Facebook.:D:D

i'll shutup now.:ziplip:
 
Yeah, I know that. It was intentional. There's a technical term for the use of such a mixing of two similar but different nouns in a apparently unintentional but actually intentionally derisory way, but I forget it. (I never was very good at English...)

Si
 
DoubleBounce said:
I see no reason for downloaded aircraft to cost more than 20 dollars. Isn't it better to make 6 dollars off of 10K downloads than 25 dollars off of 1K downloads.
Click to expand...

That might make some real sense if 10k sales were even within the realm of reality.

Aircraft are a niche-within-a-niche market. ANY specific a/c package that achives 3k+ total sales after two years on the market may be considered a runaway success... :eek:

There may be one or two 'heavies' that've achieved higher overall sales, but they are wildly atypical.

Believe me, no one is getting rich off FS addon aircraft. I earn a modest (just below official U.S. poverty level) yearly income, but that's only because I have my fingers in a LOT of projects... :rolleyes:
 
I do buy some payware, but only over the counter, and in a box.

Call me old fashioned (OK, I'm old fashioned) but I am yet to happily engage the digital era when it comes to disbursing my hard earned readies. There are too many scams out there for me, so I stay away in droves.

Having said that, I do have a fair amount of payware - where it suits me - and I also have a swag of free ware. I find that the titles I buy are those that fill a niche that I can't easily fill from free ware, so from that aspect, I suppose that my payware purchases are all impacted by the ability of freeware to do the same job.
 
I stayed away from payware for a long time until FlyTampa's Dubai appeared in a trip report. Shortly after that, Martin also produced Vienna and I realized that some things come at a price I am willing to pay.

I appreciate that some people out there with confused principles will say "no payware, on principle" and then rip off these products for their systems, but there are hopefully more people around who will consider theft to be theft and will dither about buying and finally make a choice either way with a clear conscience.

Also, Bill has said profit margins are slim at best and who am I to argue? That would tend to suggest that payware developers are not full-time FS addon designers - they may have day-jobs and need a little extra income, they may be retired and struggling on a meager pension, they could even have a disability that means they can't find any conventional work, and making addons at home and selling online would be a good model for them (pardon the pun).

If their lives were so comfortable, financially, they'd probably be a consumer. Either way they'd probably be happier in life staying away from the issues of pirates leeching away their hard work, and all the support issues for the legitimate owners.

I'm guessing that there are very few payware developers out there trying to live entirely on the proceeds of FS addons without some kind of financial backup - even if only from their spouses!
 
DoubleBounce said:
I started this hobby (obsession) a couple of years ago when I purchased FS9 for around 25 dollars. Now after spending hundreds of dollars on hardware and software enhancements ( a never ending quest, I need, yes need a new gaming computer, 30 inch monitor, and IR-Track ) and downloading gigabytes (my FSX folder is now 39 gig) of freeware I think I have a good handle on this subject.

Without the wonderful gifts of design software developed as freeware by the members of this forum this hobby would never have became what it is today. It is their software that have made it possible for others to expand their hobby into creating all of the small scenery objects that add so much to FS. Just as in model railroading. for many, it is more fun to create the scenery than it is to run the trains.

Like so many in this hobby I have migrated to FSX because of the scenery, which by it's self is good but becomes great when you add a few payware enchancements to act as the canvas for all of the little scenery downloads that others were generous enough to share with us.

It is the freeware, not payware, that is the backbone of FS. Without the freeware this hobby would never have grown into what it is today.

Payware has it's place. It is best used as a time/effort saver or to add that special scene to your sim. I have purchased FSGenesis for its mesh, UT for its scenery, and Ground Environment X for its landclass. They are used as the underpainting for all of the wonderful scenery downloads out there. They were expensive but they add so much to the quality of the scenery.

I hate to think of how long it would take me to recreate all of the work that those 3 programs provide. They are more than worth the money that I spent on them.

Now when it comes to aircraft I find that most payware is overpriced. Unlike scenery, aircraft are toys to be collected, and it is hard to justify paying more than 20 dollars for a toy that is just going to sit on your hard drive.

I see no reason for downloaded aircraft to cost more than 20 dollars. Isn't it better to make 6 dollars off of 10K downloads than 25 dollars off of 1K downloads.

Just look at how many people downloaded the Aerosoft Super Cub saying "What the heck, for 10 dollars I cant go wrong." It was a win-win for everyone. Not only did they get a great airplane it also showed them just how great Aerosoft products are.

After being burned several times downloading Payware Aircraft I have decided that too many of them are not worth the money it takes to collect them.

When it comes to FSX freeware aircraft most of them are migrated FS9 aircraft and require being reworked to make them right, but that's another hobby, isn't it.

So it looks like our hobby needs both freeware and payware. Freeware to spur on creative development and inspiration and payware for those projects that get out of hand and grow into full time jobs.


I must admit that my FSX when combined with both payware and freeware has turned me into a true "Scenery Slut". Now I fly low and slow with my head stuck out the window and a great big grin on my face while searching through that payware scenery for that freeware gravel stip hidden in the woods somewhere along the river.

You heavy iron boys can keep your jets and angels 30. As you speed by up there where good detailed scenery isn't that important, I'll be down here at 1500 feet counting the trees and watching the whales spout off of Orca Island.

~~ Dale ~~
Click to expand...

Am with you Dale.....all my freeware Adventure Flights with a bunch of .bgl´s are for VFR pilotos who like to swoop down gullies, canyons and get into sneaky down there rivers. I sometimes on purpose make airfields impossible to get in except on only one end and have made some that you have to make your approach to the middle for otherwise its no go....great fun and all freeware. I agree with many here that freeware is the driving force of our hobby but I do buy some payware since it is very good and not around in freeware. When I tell non simmers that most of the stuff they see on my screen is freeware they simply do not believe it, so I take them to Avsim and other sites and they just flip....now this is not a lone thing. I also "make" solid wood scale model aircraft and that is also quite free if you want, anyway to me, this is the best hobby around and one of its great assets we see it here......guys like you shearing your knowledge so others can make their stuff work, that amigos is really a grand feat-----never have so many done so much for so many more......Thank you all.:)
 
Last edited:
Here for the Beer said:
That would tend to suggest that payware developers are not full-time FS addon designers - they may have day-jobs and need a little extra income, they may be retired and struggling on a meager pension, they could even have a disability that means they can't find any conventional work, and making addons at home and selling online would be a good model for them (pardon the pun).

I'm guessing that there are very few payware developers out there trying to live entirely on the proceeds of FS addons without some kind of financial backup - even if only from their spouses!
Click to expand...

I'm one of the very few. I am single, retired, disabled, and rely solely on the income from Eaglesoft. I have no living family to fall back on either... :scratchch
 
n4gix said:
I'm one of the very few. I am single, retired, disabled, and rely solely on the income from Eaglesoft. I have no living family to fall back on either... :scratchch
Click to expand...

There are a few of us, but I do think that it may not be possible to make a decent living. Instead, we give that up for the privilege of being able to do what we love, and be our own boss.

When I started my business, I did have savings, and a wife who worked, but both are long gone:) I earn about half of what I used to earn in employment, but most days I thank God that I'm no longer reliant on the whims of others during my working week.

I'm a solo dad, I rent, I haven't had a proper holiday for 3 years, but my daughter and I have a pretty good life...
 
As I near the end of my first real quality project, I am leaning towards selling it also. I don't think $8.99 is too much to ask for over 500 hrs. of work. Heck, if I sold 500 copies, that's less than $9 per hour. I have no intentions of ever making a living or even a substantial part time income. I just want to be able to buy better tools and hardware so that I can keep up with the hobby. I've been doing FS Stuff since the very first version. Seems like it used to be easier to keep up with the technology. Maybe I had more coin to spend back then when everything in life was cheaper. I love doing this stuff, but love won't buy me the things I need to do it better!!!

CH:cool:
 
I am just about 50, never married, always wanted to be.

My first successful business after many.

I love FS, I love flying more, but FS is what I can afford. I am a designer and I get to make things, which I love also, and so my business of making sim planes fills my soul with accomplishment.

Remember guys.. Dont think small.. Think great! You might sell a plane for $9.00 each, but you might sell 30,000 of them! Which would be a massive blessing, I believe. :eek:

The more time you put into it, the better and more refined, the better your work will appear and be appreciated.


Thats all I know..


Bill
 
Good Freeware bad for business?
Click to expand...

Without reading through 6 pages of this thread, and with no offense to the OP; that's tough. If freeware is causing you a headache, go out learn your craft better and make better planes. FS was FOUNDED on freeware and if that goes away, then I think you'll find that FS will do the same. It's not that I mind paying for a plane; in fact most of what I have is payware. The RealAir Spit is the greatest add-on for FS ever, hands down! But for someone (designers in general, not the OP personally) to sit and say that freeware is hurting you is not even worth a discussion in my book.

Respectfully,
Kevin
 
Hey Kevin... I just read every post in this thread...took me almost an hour to absorb it all. You should have read it, because you have totally missed the point. :) Not saying that to offend you, but your comment makes no sense if you read the thread..which you admitted that you didn't.

I do wish the poll had many more options. And I wonder how many people posted here have changed their views, if any at all, in the 3 years since this poll and topic started. A great topic and I actually enjoyed reading all the views.

As one that created software years ago and sold it (nothing to do with FS) and made good money on it but dealt with that wonderful piracy factor...we planned for it, as you must do, and after consulting a lawyer, built in a fun (we laughed anyways) little backdoor bomb that we could activate when we found an illegal copy. We found many, and had a blast killing our software. (it put a very nasty but funny message on the users screen then hid a file preventing the software from ever running again if re-installed, and then deleted the main software) You can get away with that if you simply put everything that will happen in your documentation, that no one reads. LOL

But, back on topic... I have so far put well over 1000 hours in my NKL project. Many of those spent on tiny tiny tiny details that most people will never notice, think about, or do if they created this... But, that is just how I am. I am using stock or freeware scenery objects because I don't and have no desire to create my own objects. Would I love a custom built set of hangars, terminals, signs with the airport name on it, our VA name, etc... Hell yeah I would.. But, unless someone wants to donate all that work and time to me, then it won't be happening...ever. I would love to make money on this project. I will probably put in the ole "if you like this, and use it, feel free to click the donate button.. Even a buck is a great thank you." But, alas, the scenery will go out as freeware. Everything I create is and will always be freeware.

Why? Because this community has given me so much pleasure and enjoyment that I simply owe it back. And yes, I do donate to this site and to other sites that I use regularly... I also click the donate button when I use a plane or scenery often. I usually try to give $5.00 USD to people when I use their goodies. But, I know for a fact that I am NOT the norm. Too bad, too, because maybe there would be even better freeware products available if more people would even give just a thanks or a buck or five. Maybe some of the payware developers would be freeware if they were compensated SOMETHING.

There is a poll for ya..

Would you (the payware creator) remain freeware if the majority of people that use your products would say thank you or donate a couple bucks?


- Greg
 
Not a clear decision

Howdy,

Freeware is useful when there is no other software that performs a particular function. If a project is poorly coded or is very limited in scope it should be freeware - so as not to rip off consumers.
However, if someone creates a program that has many features and/or improves existing projects - or has taken great effort to produce the author should be compensated.

That being said - there are a lot of payware applications that aren't worth the money - the feature set or quality is just too low to support the amounts some developers request. e.g. paying $40.00 for an aircraft with minor additional features based on a completely free version is a total ripoff
 
It's amazing seeing some things that are completely rubbish, and people are asking a lot of money for it. Having said that, it's amazing to see some of the things that a free too! :)
 
I too just read every post in the thread... Many different takes on the subject, all equally valid viewpoints. This really is an amazing community, sometimes it seems like everybody knows everybody.

I'm not exactly flytampa, and many of my airports are in locations too obscure to have quality aerial photos for ground textures. The textures are all hand drawn, Not many fancy animations (although I'm still full of myself after getting my radar to rotate). They're quite detailed though, but they aren't the greatest on the market.

Earlier this year, I was warned about a large flight sim addon piracy site, which was hosting my files... They called me a "crappy new developer". Cal from imaginesim and I helped shut then down =P

So I'm a crappy new developer... But I'm trying. The small price tag on my sceneries is really just to raise a little bit of help for college. Anyone with a degree knows that every penny on the sidewalk helps when it comes to paying for it. I just happen to be doing it working with my #1 love in life: airports! Most of my satisfaction un my sxenery adventures comes from the support and friendship I get from the FS community and the sizable cult following I have gained among north carolinian pilots and airport staff
 
youre not a crappy developer my any strectch of the imagination Jon...I have one of your sceneries and its not 'crap', I actually am very impressed by it:D. If anythings crap, its my scenery..lol:eek:
 
jonmkj said:
I too just read every post in the thread... Many different takes on the subject, all equally valid viewpoints. This really is an amazing community, sometimes it seems like everybody knows everybody.

I'm not exactly flytampa, and many of my airports are in locations too obscure to have quality aerial photos for ground textures. The textures are all hand drawn, Not many fancy animations (although I'm still full of myself after getting my radar to rotate). They're quite detailed though, but they aren't the greatest on the market.

Earlier this year, I was warned about a large flight sim addon piracy site, which was hosting my files... They called me a "crappy new developer". Cal from imaginesim and I helped shut then down =P

So I'm a crappy new developer... But I'm trying. The small price tag on my sceneries is really just to raise a little bit of help for college. Anyone with a degree knows that every penny on the sidewalk helps when it comes to paying for it. I just happen to be doing it working with my #1 love in life: airports! Most of my satisfaction un my sxenery adventures comes from the support and friendship I get from the FS community and the sizable cult following I have gained among north carolinian pilots and airport staff
Click to expand...

Don't be offended by what this site has said, each person has the right to create a site and sell a product to earn a few bob now and again, it takes time to develop your skills with scenery design, do you mind me asking the name of the site, even PM me it if you like, please ?

When I first started, I had a very limited knowledge about design, over a year I have learnt so much which is the result of this wonderful community. When I was taking my scenery to a next level, trying new things etc I had considered going payware, Istopped, and thought, whats the damn point ?

If my files are going to be uploaded by some selfish sod that has nothing better to do then commit piracy then I shall not bother wasting time on something which the rewards would be non-existant. If i marketed a new product at £10.00, I'm not a well know site or developer, but it would take days for it to be pirated, think of the FS users that do it this way, I would probably be loosing a good half , if not more of my profit from torrent sites. I also thought that freeware would perhaps give me a better rep, but at present the traffic to my site is practically non existant, is it the fact that I'm not spreading the URL, I don't know.

Nowadays, compared to a few years ago, payware has become freeware in a sense, don't you think ? Ofcourse, in my op i think good freeware is bad for buisness, if you have a freeware version of Southampton, and a payware version at say £12.50, the freeware on being slighty crapper, users will still opt for the freeware as they simply don't want to fork out the cash.

Its sad to see a innocent hobby turn out like this, from now on all my files and projects will be hosted on my site only, whether it will make a difference or not i don't know. Within days, last Septemeber my first Penzance Heliport had gone from Avsim, Simviation and Flightsim.com (sites I uploaded to), to other cheap ''illegal'' sites such as fsplanet, and fs2000.org, Sadley as there is no internet police as such it not easy to stop piracy in any form, Jonmkj, don't worry about what others say, concentrate on the things that matter the most, more Importantly, enjoy it.

If you get into any further trouble with such sites, let me know !

Kind regards,

Piran.
 
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