MSFS20 Terraforming on TIN

[Nordscape]

I am currently working on a project which is within an Asobo TIN photogrammetry scenery (Oslo, norway area), and I've encountered an issue regarding terraforming. I see that there are several posts about the issue, that terraforming is not working when adjusting the terrain above TIN photogrammetry, but I am hoping to get some tips to a workaround.

I've placed a polygon with the exclusion of TIN and also terraforming to the flattest area. I've then placed a rectangle on top with higher priority enabling the height profile and adjusting. I still see lots of spikes from what I assume is "left over" TIN/height data, and it also behaves rather unstable by suddenly ignoring all assigned adjustments and so on.

My question is therefore what is the best practise for working within an area covered by Asobo TIN?

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Vetle:

Would you please attach a screenshot of area(s) rendering at run time in MSFS 2020 with "spikes from what I assume is "left over" TIN/height data" ?


PS: If you install Shift+Z Stats and display coordinates on screen (like legacy FS2Kx versions also may do), we can ID the location(s) in your screen shots.

https://flightsim.to/file/16358/shift-z-stats


Personally, I almost exclusively use Shift+Z Stats, and disable the MSFS HUD; but AFAIK, as a Helo pilot you might prefer having it active on screen.

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

The spikes seems to be interfering with the terraforming in a way I have not seen until now, and has only happened within a TIN-area. The reason I believe it is "left over TIN" is due to them being present with whatever terraforming method I use. Evening out the terrain helps, but I need to be quite aggressive in doing so to be certain there is nothing left. And as you can see from the images there are several areas even within the terraforming rectangle which are not affected at all...

Here I have used an exclusion polygon which removes TIN and also terraforms to ground level at priority 0. The terraforming polygon above is a priority 1. I have also tried to use a terraforming rectangle with heigh map, and the same results happen then.

 

[Nordscape]

This is if I remove the TIN buildings, but dont flatten the terrain before terraforming above it:

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Vetle:

This is default MSFS 2020 scenery with Menu > General Options > Graphics > Terrain LOD at 100;

The terrain / TIN surfaces at ENLX still looks the same even with that GUI Terrain LOD slider at 400:

Are you certain you do not also have loaded in \Community folder, any 3rd party GEDOT 3D G-Polys for ENLX ?

Terrain captured by those add-ons is based on 30 Meter or even 90 Meter SRTM data, thus, less accurate than MSFS default.

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

Hi Vetle:

This is default MSFS 2020 scenery with Menu > General Options > Graphics > Terrain LOD at 100;

The terrain / TIN surfaces at ENLX still looks the same even with that GUI Terrain LOD slider at 400:

View attachment 96760

View attachment 96761

View attachment 96762

Are you certain you do not also have loaded in \Community folder, any 3rd party GEDOT 3D G-Polys for ENLX ?

Terrain captured by those add-ons is based on 30 Meter or even 90 Meter SRTM data, thus, less accurate than MSFS default.

GaryGB

My community folder is clean during fs development. Please also note that the above images you refer to are showing a flat terraform polyon around the helipad. My point with showing those images are that the terraforming polygons do not behave correctly when in a TIN area. I did not experience those issues either with the ensx or enkh projects.

The reason for why I have to use terraforming polygons is due to the platform not being flat enough for my custom made objects. I have to flatten the surface.

The images you show are not close enough to show the issue regarding the platforms. You will see the issue as soon as you are right on top of it.

 

[GaryGB]

My community folder is clean during FS development.

Good, that will help with troubleshooting this.

Please also note that the above images you refer to are showing a flat terraform polygon around the helipad. My point with showing those images are that the terraforming polygons do not behave correctly when in a TIN area. I did not experience those issues either with the ENSX or ENKH projects.

Are you referring to your screenshots, or my screenshots ..."showing a flat terraform polyon around the helipad" ?

If you are referring to yours, then no, I do not see that it is ..."showing a flat terraform polyon around the helipad"

If you are referring to mine, then yes, I do see that it is ..."showing a flat terraform polyon around the helipad".

However, I have done no editing of the ENLX scenery to date in MSFS, and have no add-ons loaded for ENLX.

The reason for why I have to use terraforming polygons is due to the platform not being flat enough for my custom made objects. I have to flatten the surface.

Quite understandable.

Are you wanting a uniformly "flat" but 'sloped' surface (which IIUC, is likely to be what it is IRL) ?

Or are you instead wanting a uniformly "flat" but 'level' surface (which IIUC, is not likely to be ...what it is IRL) ?

The images you show are not close enough to show the issue regarding the platforms. You will see the issue as soon as you are right on top of it.

Indeed, I do see a few very small edges protruding up from the plane of my own current MSFS default ENLH Helipad surface.

That said, none of the surface irregularities I see at MSFS default ENLH Helipad are as large as those seen in your screenshots.

IIUC, that is the result of your attempting to TerraForm on top of a TIN ?

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

Are you referring to your screenshots, or my screenshots ..."showing a flat terraform polyon around the helipad" ?

I was referring to my own screenshots which show TIN interfering with my own terraforming.

I then referred to your screenshots showing what it looks like when no editing has been done, and we see the same. Some spikes here and there, elevated and uneven terrain as shown in your image with the cub.

Are you wanting a uniformly "flat" but 'sloped' surface (which IIUC, is likely to be what it is IRL) ?

Or are you instead wanting a uniformly "flat" but 'level' surface (which IIUC, is not likely to be ...what it is IRL) ?

I want [and need] the terrain to be uniformly flat and level on top of the helipad, but only until reaching the asphalt ramp by the west wall, sloped grass to the north or the concrete wall to the south. The reason for why I need it to be completely flat is due to the model. It requires a flat surface, or else there will be errors. And offcourse I coud settle or adjust the model somehow, but currently the spiking and uneven terrain even with terraforming is such a big issue that it is not reasonable to adjust the model before that has been solved.

Indeed, I do see a few very small edges protruding up from the plane of my own current MSFS default ENLH Helipad surface.

View attachment 96770

That said, none of the surface irregularities I see at MSFS default ENLH Helipad are as large as those seen in your screenshots.

IIUC, that is the result of your attempting to TerraForm on top of a TIN ?

Correct, but what you show are enough to not make it compatible with the model. Also, the spikes and elevated terrain in the screenshot is what I assume is getting worse when I am terraforming.

 

[Nordscape]

So; turning off photogrammetry shows what I have previously seen with my projects, and what I was expecting with this one also:

The result of no photogrammetry is a "perfectly" adjustable terrain surface which is totally different from when the photogrammetry is activated

 

[GaryGB]

Looks promising.

Indeed, there have been intermittent reports of TerraForming issues, sometimes as dramatic as your screenshots show, since at least 2021, and has been reported to a greater extent in MSFS 2024 since MSFS SU1 and especially SU2 were made available.

The more recent reports complain of a conflict between Photogrammetry and TerraForming Polygons, especially in MSFS 2024.


Boris at Asobo reported that he believed this was being addressed in SU2 revisions sometime soon.


The fact that this has been occurring via the SDK since 2021 may raise questions about developer procedural issues via the SDK.


SDK docs say (2) TerraForming polygons may not overlap within the same Geographic extents, or they exclude each other.

That scenario was also an obscure quirk of FS2Kx, but it may merit testing in MSFS, as it may be that we actually can have overlapping polygons with the same attribute without them excluding each other.

Priority may be an issue not only because of numeric "layer" assignment, but 'perhaps' due to size of Geographic extents for a polygon being superseded by another polygon with a larger extent, which functionally forces it to load first and prevail in display if we spawn remotely and fly into the local area with a smaller "mesh tile" of TerraForming TIN code.

However, if we spawn local to the smaller "mesh tile" of TerraForming TIN code, that smaller TIN tile may display.

But if we "fool" the terrain rendering engine into loading the smaller "mesh tile" of TerraForming TIN code by putting a couple of data points at Geographic coordinates remote from the bulk of the smaller "mesh tile" of TerraForming TIN code, and we then spawn remotely and fly into the local area of the smaller "mesh tile", it may display, because it preempts the default local larger TIN code data set.

Again, that scenario was an obscure quirk of FS2Kx, but it may also merit testing in MSFS to see if it works.

There is also a 'possibility' that we may use SBuilderX to make FS2Kx CVX Vector flattens with assigned "continuous" and "Variable" altitudes for vertices along the poly-lines for the desired Heliport surface .

Once compiled for FSX / P3D, we can retrieve the *.BGL file(s) and use Patrick Germain's CvxExtractor to output ESRI FLX*.SHP files, then import those into MSFS DevMode Scenery Editor as "primitive" polygons, to which we assign updated MSFS compliant SHP DBF field attributes via Polygon Properties.

Those Polygons may then be packaged for output as MSFS "sloped" flattens comparable to those we can make for FS2Kx.

Additionally, we can output ESRI SHP files and various 3D mesh objects from Sketchup (...a subject for later: 4:30 A.M. ).

But basically, we "should" be able to precisely 3D model MSFS terrain as we wish, and have it over-ride the default terrain / TIN.

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

Looks promising.

I would say yes, and no. It is indeed nice to see that the terraforming works as I expect, but it is disturbing to see an issue which seemingly have been present for as long as msfs2020 have existed to not have been corrected. I am kind of worried that the issue will be too significant for me to complete this project without adding "users need to deactivate photogrammetry to make this scenery work" to the download description. I really do not want to do that...

Indeed, there have been intermittent reports of TerraForming issues, sometimes as dramatic as your screenshots show, since at least 2021, and has been reported to a greater extent in MSFS 2024 since MSFS SU1 and especially SU2 were made available.

The more recent reports complain of a conflict between Photogrammetry and TerraForming Polygons, especially in MSFS 2024.


Boris at Asobo reported that he believed this was being addressed in SU2 revisions sometime soon.

Yeah, I read that somewhere. Do you think that will also affect msfs2020 sdk?

There is a 'possibility' that we may use SBuilderX to make FS2Kx CVX Vector flattens with assigned "continuous" and "Variable" altitudes for vertices along the poly-lines for the desired Heliport surface .

Once compiled for FSX / P3D, we can retrieve the *.BGL file(s) and use Patrick Germain's CvxExtractor to output ESRI FLX*.SHP files, then import those into MSFS DevMode Scenery Editor as "primitive" polygons, to which we assign updated MSFS compliant SHP DBF field attributes via Polygon Properties.

Those Polygons may then be packaged for output as MSFS "sloped" flattens comparable to those we can make for FS2Kx.

We also have options for output of ESRI SHP files and various mesh objects from Sketchup (...a subject for later: 4 A.M. ).

I may misread you, but making the helipad where it needs to be totally flat is something I certainly could make within Sketchup. That is basically what I did for the ENSX-project. I will however loose the rain effects on the ground, but I guess that is a smaller price to pay instead of dropping the whole project... . I would basically only need to make the platform within Sketchup which in a way is more easy and precise than doing it live within msfs... . I could also make the brick wall in combination with the ramp, which also is easier and more precise... hmmm....

The green section would need to be flat, while the red/brown section is curved and sloped. The grassfields, and roads can just be TIN-photogrammetry. I only need precise terrain on top of the platform...

But basically, we "should" be able to precisely 3D model MSFS terrain as we wish, and have it over-ride the default terrain / TIN.

I am hoping there is such a possibility...

 

[Nordscape]

Unfortunately using priority 50+ for a terraforming polygon did not do anything (as you mentioned in DM, Gary)

 

[GaryGB]

OK, we'll keep on looking for ways to fix this (hopefully before Asobo gets around to addressing this properly in an update to SU2).

PS: Good work posting this anomaly on Asobo's DevSupport Forum:

https://devsupport.flightsimulator.com/t/terraforming-on-tin/14509


I noticed most Wish list "Votes" induce no reply; but forum thread "News with Film At 11:00" ...help Asobo "Feel The Heat".


I also noticed issues in such threads quietly end up being resolved within months at most, with status replies by Boris.


In other cases, threads get abandoned by posters, and who knows whether they end up being resolved by Asobo ASAP.

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

OK, we'll keep on looking for ways to fix this (hopefully before Asobo gets around to addressing this properly in an update to SU2).

PS: Good work posting this anomaly on Asobo's DevSupport Forum:

https://devsupport.flightsimulator.com/t/terraforming-on-tin/14509


I noticed most Wish list "Votes" induce no reply; but forum thread "News with Film At 11:00" ...help Asobo "Feel The Heat".


I also noticed issues in such threads quietly end up being resolved within months at most, with status replies by Boris.


In other cases, threads get abandoned by posters, and who knows whether they end up being resolved by Asobo ASAP.

GaryGB

I know...an extremely annoying part of learning new things which are considered a "small" part (albeit absolutely necessary) of the hobby. Unresolved threads are a sickness in itself...

 

[GaryGB]

I will be on the road a few days, and will be thinking of ways to achieve this phase of the project upon my return later Monday.

Have a good weekend.

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

I will be on the road a few days, and will be thinking of ways to achieve this phase of the project upon my return later Monday.

Have a good weekend.

GaryGB

Thanks, you too.

In the meantime I've managed to find a relatively good solution to the terrain issue, so I am confident that either way the result will look ok, happy to say...Was worried a bit there....

 

[GaryGB]

Looks even more promising.

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

I gotta say...working with terraforming ontop of TIN-terrain is a nightmare....Incredibly unpredictable, and each adjustment made takes long time to load. And when they actually do load all changes come at once....

And when actually being able to adjust the terrain, not all of the terrain is being adjusted... There is obviously generated some sort of terrain, but it will not render in the sim, even after cleaning the project...

 

[GaryGB]

Hi again:

Within weeks of MSFS 2020 RTM, I decided to reduce my assigned resolution in MSFS to improve performance in SDK DevMode GUI.

General flight activities FPS varies little between 4K and 1440x900 in MSFS.

However, in SDK DevMode GUI, response speed for rendering update of edits is much faster at 1440x900 resolution.

Caveat: Mouse cursor may become misaligned in DevMode GUI Menus if Windows Desktop assigned resolution is different from that assigned for MSFS SDK DevMode GUI; use identical settings during MSFS development work

I also disable Frame Rate Lock while working in MSFS SDK DevMode GUI.

Vertex density for Polygons, number of Polygon attributes, and resolution of mapped textures on 3D models or projected terrain texture Materials should otherwise not have an impact on performance in MSFS SDK DevMode GUI.

It does seem as though there may be a persistent interaction and/or interference between TerraForming and an underlying TIN layer that may merit further troubleshooting, since you are working in MSFS 2020 instead of 2024.

I have also encountered performance issues with very high density tree Biomes, Roads etc. so I make huge local area excludes for certain scenery objects, that I hide / un-hide as needed in MSFS SDK DevMode GUI Scenery Editor, to work with less distraction and better rendering speed while creating / editing scenery content.

GaryGB

 

[Nordscape]

Hi again:

Within weeks of MSFS 2020 RTM, I decided to reduce my assigned resolution in MSFS to improve performance in SDK DevMode GUI.

General flight activities FPS varies little between 4K and 1440x900 in MSFS.

However, in SDK DevMode GUI, response speed for rendering update of edits is much faster at 1440x900 resolution.

Caveat: Mouse cursor may become misaligned in DevMode GUI Menus if Windows Desktop assigned resolution is different from that assigned for MSFS SDK DevMode GUI; use identical settings during MSFS development work

I also disable Frame Rate Lock while working in MSFS SDK DevMode GUI.

Vertex density for Polygons, number of Polygon attributes, and resolution of mapped textures on 3D models or projected terrain texture Materials should otherwise not have an impact on performance in MSFS SDK DevMode GUI.

It does seem as though there may be a persistent interaction and/or interference between TerraForming and an underlying TIN layer that may merit further troubleshooting, since you are working in MSFS 2020 instead of 2024.

I have also encountered performance issues with very high density tree Biomes, Roads etc. so I make huge local area excludes for certain scenery objects, that I hide / un-hide as needed in MSFS SDK DevMode GUI Scenery Editor, to work with less distraction and better rendering speed while creating / editing scenery content.

GaryGB

I see. However I do not think this is a performance issue. Everything else flows fine when under pressure from the terraforming. What is really annoying me with all of this is the incredibly unpradictable terraforming working outside of my assigned terraforming area...Suddenly an area which was flat and outside of my terraforming rectangles ended up being a big hole... It's almost like the generated terrain has threads strecthing far out and around all over the place...seems rather hopeless at the moment.....