Good Freeware bad for business?

[Francois]

Interesting discussion ... and some familiar faces around

I just un-lurked myself here...... Hi all !

As to the initial question, whether freeware is bad for commercial products?

My take on it is : on the contrary!
If it weren't for the large freeware movement, there would be no breeding ground for commercial developers !
AND.. there would be less challenge to 'better' products out there. ANY good product, whether that be freeware or payware, will challenge developers/designers to come up with something equal or better.... either for personal reasons or for commercial ones.

That said in addition to the excellent posts of Bill and Art, above.

Just 0.02 Eurocents from one of these 'evil publishers'

François

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

There are many points in the 60 odd posts that leave one to reflect
upon the " barrier " between the two worlds - professional and hobbyist,
As a rule when a freeware developer posts a question regarding XML
parts production i will reply with the completed and tested code .
Alternatively the same request from a " professional " will not be
answered any more , why ? ,, two reasons : 1 not getting credit for
the solution , meaning on those occasions that i have " given " the
Code to pro's there has been use made of the XML's in their product(s)
but without thanks or mention of authorship assistance.
2: there is a perception that the professional should know " all this stuff "
and is therefore left to sink or swim.
Then let me close with my belief that professionals need to be motivated
to some extent by the constant pressure to push the envelope in order
to justify the purchase of what should be a superior product compared
to what we amateurs produce .

 

[bob5568]

to Steven, good to hear you're still at it!

Best,
Bob Bernstein

 

[jcboliveira]

My personal thoughts: Freeware doesn’t hurt payware and vice versa.

It’s not a question of quality since you can find good and bad products in both fields (sometimes I wonder myself how can people buy some products) so I don’t agree with the challenge concept. There is challenge but usually more among payware products due to commercial reasons.

Of course can’t expect that a person that spends money (and I’m not talking about a weekend trip to take some airfield photos) would release the final product for free. Also don’t agree with the time thesis, if you spend a lot of time you should be entitled to some reward, if it is freeware it’s a hobby so it doesn’t matter how much time you spend. Personally I do freeware because:

1 - I enjoy it and give me freedom to do what I want.
2 – Is not in my professional field so I believe that if I’m experimenting, learning I’m not untitled to earn money with it;
3 –It gives me personal satisfaction
4 – It’s a hobby the exactly the same thing of running FS and fly a plane;

However there is something that I like in this community, the fact that a lot of payware producers contribute themselves with knowledge and/or ideas. And for me that is a qualifying factor.

José

 

[Wildfire563]

Hmm, I'm a little confused by the concept of this thread.

If I understand the opening comments, there is a thought that freeware is bad for business for those who want to create payware????

Freeware authors are making purchasers expect too much from payware developers??????????

Anyone who thinks like this should probably do something else.

Guys, if you want to charge for your work, charge for it. It'll sell or it won't. How it sells will likely be largely driven by the quality of the work, the "desire factor" of the work, the marketing, and the support, in that order. If you can't equal the quality of freeware, why bother trying to sell it? It's not like you have any god given right to make money just because you put a lot of work into it. In order to make money, you have to offer something that somebody else wants to pay for. How many people work really hard to make it to the olympics compared to the number of medals given out?

Whether you want to support your work or not is also your choice, but the consequence of your choice will affect sales, plain and simple. Look at the damage Captain Sim has suffered for their perceived lack of support. I suppose I don't know if it has really affected sales, but the vitriol I read about them tells me it must have.

Freeware is here to stay. I believe if it were to go away, the market would shrink significantly. Much of the reason I am involved in the hobby is because of freeware (which I have published a bit of). If I had to pay lots of money to develop things, I'd find something else to do. I, too, would like to get some money back for the time I have invested in it, but I am realistic about the concept.

In order to get anything, you've got to invest appropriately. And still you may lose your whole investment no matter how hard you work. I've invested over $8,000 into my business so far, and I feel I'll be very lucky if it ever actually makes money for me directly. But the investment has been worth it for me personally (what the heck is money, anyway, it ain't going with me), I've learned a lot about lots of things, and it has opened doors for me elsewhere. I must say this is a really great hobby, with a lot of potential to help mankind in a lot of ways, and I hope to help promote that to the best of my ability.

I've got to say, the poll makes me a little angry. Are you suggesting that there should be a law against giving away the work you do?

Perhaps you need to reevaluate what you expect in return for your investment?

See http://www.flyingscool.com

 

[Gridley]

I've got a couple of points I'd like to make -I've been following this thread for a bit.

First, we need freeware, and more of it, to bring the payware pricepoint back into line with where it should be. I'll come back to this point.

Motivation to go payware can be many, some more magnanamous than others.

First, simply, it's to offset costs. I considered buying some aerial photography and charging a nominal fee to offset that purchase. Another consideration is that, more and more frequently, the tools needed to create scenery are becoming payware, so there's more of a "cost of entry" then there used to be. A gray area is "time" - the amount of time someone devotes to design, deploy, and support an addon can be tremendous, as we all know, and we do deserve compensation if we desire it for the time we devote to the hobby.

Second, it's to make money. How much money becomes the issue. I have no data on this, but profit margins seem considerable for many of these ventures. I know that proprietary GPS data or photo imagery must be expensive to use and license (just as an obvious example, not pointing fingers- please don't take this the wrong way), but for many payware ventures, overhead is not that great, maybe non-existant. Compounded by ever-increasing prices (remember the days of $5 addons? Remember the days of $20 addons? Remember the days of $40 addons?), I think this small market has created a very good revenue generator for many, and profit margins in my opinion must be considerable. Business is business, and if the demand is there and people pay the asking price, someone will fill that demand.

This is why I think freeware is important. We can't tell a for-profit entity what to charge for their addons. We can't define a justification based on logic - the market defines the cost of payware. What WE can do is create quality addons at a price point much below payware costs, preferably freeware, and provide options to potential customers. This is the only way we can bring prices of commercial addons down. I'm sure the profit margins for many addons can be reduced, and the motivation to reduce them can be brought about by introduction of low-cost alternatives.

The key to this is making sure the design tools remain free or inexpensive. I suspect the industry will try hard to prevent this. GMax is dead (unsupported) and the thousand-dollar replacements are alive for a reason.

I'd love to write more, but I've got to finish our Bahamas scenery and FS-Blaze before FSX come out! I think my point has been made.

Regards,
sg

 

[Badge]

Great reading guys as me and my team embark down this payware road, I can't even beging to count the money Ive spent just over the last 12 months on payware. Ive many lessons and wasted a lot of money on developers that don't support their product and I will do whatever it takes not to become one of them.

 

[mgavioli]

Compounded by ever-increasing prices (remember the days of $5 addons? Remember the days of $20 addons? Remember the days of $40 addons?)

I remember: two of my latest add-ons were priced $10 and EUR 14.95 respectively (that was in 2005 and 2006, not 1985...), both sold by thousands (the second more than the first).

Why did we set those prices? In both cases there were no freeware alternatives; basically, because we wanted to sell it! (the 'market guy' of one of this product is also in this list and may answer more precisely if he want).

Did we loose money? Personaly, I am quite happy of the outcome.

That said, I agree with all your comments! And with most of the other posts too, even when they contradict each other, because each comes from a perspective and makes sense from it.

Very interesting discussion! Thank you,

Maurizio

 

[José Bourgoignie]

Hi,

As I red this topic, I discovered also your fantastic EDLM2005 scenery.
The lights are amazing, especially the lightbeam going around. I live in Ostend (Belgium) at the coast and like of course such lighthouse beam, hà. The framerates are 39.9 (locked at 40fps) and that's wonderfull ! The details are stunning... in one word: hight quality scenery... and freeware.
That was also the issue of this topic. Difficult to say but this freeware scenery is more worth than many mega payware sceneries. Should you make your scenery payware ? No, don't sell your soul to the devil...

Regards. José.

 

[Horst18519]

Thanks for the words, Josè.

Actually the big success of EDLM2005 was the reason why I started this thread. And after a long time with a huge amount of good reasons and argues I still wonder which is the "right" way.

Finally, I really feel lucky to have initiated this discussion - it's very interesting to read what other payware/freeware-designers think about it. Thanks to you all!

For me this decision may not be important anymore for I wonder if I will have the time to make "Kiel 08" as detailed as EDLM.

 

[bcs112]

Hi all,

I don't think I can add anything new to this discussion as all pro and cons have been dealt with by previous posters but I do want to share my motivation for staying committed freeware.

I have only developed one freeware panel (A300B4-203) so far, this took me three years (approx 1500hours) and I am still enhancing and reworking the code at this time (FSX is testing me ).

During those three years I learned how to program C and C++, I have met numerous real-life A300 pilots, spent time in the CAE simulator in Brussels and got to know some amazing people.
I became part of a community that equally enjoyes the two things I enjoy most (apart from my family that is): flying and programming. A community where helping eachother without any financial gaine is still the rule, something that is quite uncommon in day-to-day life as we know it now.

The latest release of my panel has generated more than 6500 download on AVSIM in less than 2 months, and even if only 25% of the people who downloaded the panel still use it today, this means that more than 1500 people are enjoying something I created ! Through the years I received numerous e-mails from people thanking me for my work, showing interest in what I have created and giving me valuable feedback.

To me all these things make the work worthwhile, something a few Euros per hour invested would probably never do...

Björn

 

[VulcanB2]

Hi,

I'm a developer of payware scenery. I'm not a commercial scenery developer because I want to make money (I coudn't make enough for it to be commercially viable), I do it because I'm spending hunderds of hours researching an airport, creating it to a high standard etc.. and would like a little reward for my efforts. For me, my biggest goal is the enjoyment my customers get out of my scenery, along with a (yet to be built) good reputation for producing quality add-ons.

I do agree that the price of certain payware add-ons for FS have got rediculous, but that is because they are being run as a business first, and not as a hobby.

For me, FS will always be a hobby, whether designing for it, or flying it.

Whether someone wishes to either give their work away for free, or charge a small fee for it is entirely the discretion of that person/group. I as a consumer will decide whether something is worth the asking price. If it is, and I like it, I'll buy it. If not, I won't, and I'll move on. I certainly won't judge and say "why is this payware when freeware is better". If my enjoyment outweighs what I did (or did not) pay for it, then it was worth it.

Best regards,
Robin.

 

[Andrey Tsvirenko]

Hello all!

Interesting discussion here in deed, I'm not sure I'll add something really new but my two cents:

I'm talking about aircraft for FS - in now level of technologyes freeware will never beat payware, will never make serious harm for good FS add-on product sales. I see the freeware aircraft quality, I know what is possible to do in FS... If you decide to make good freeware model you need on your bank account minimum 500$ per month for food (in Russia) as long as year-two to sit home near PC and working and working, you need knowledge in 3D design (gmax, 3DSmax better, Photoshop), in programming C and xml for sure, in sound recording and processing a last you need good knowledge in aerodynamics.... you see ?

Even if you have a team of enthusiast really working (not only at the evening "after work") soon or later you'll decide that "this is capitalistic world"..... I see this in reality with many teams here in Russia, who was started as "free"...

That is my opinion, that is all about the planes, situation with scenery bit different however became closed to described. Anyway sure freeware have a chance to live as lond as people do that, download that, fly that, but I think anyone who have tryed good payware airplane will not compare that with freeware... only my oppinion.

sorry for my poor English

 

[Donald Elliott]

Interesting read.
I have devoted a lot of time to the Sim from the early day's version 4 I believe FS 95? hmm don't quite remember. what I can tell you is 16 colors in the day were a hoot.
I also have to say "Freeware" has driven the "Payware" market and will continue to do so. That's just how it works fellas.
Note: Most of the Payware developers today were Freeware developers of yesterday.

Being a successful businessman I personally would shriek at the ideal of payware in such a small market. The amount of time and resources to really capitalize and profit are just not there, not to mention the licensing of software to release commercially is just to high. At least to overhead my current business. The numbers just don't add up fellas your not going to get rich making payware, nor is anyone going to make a really stable living from it. Sure there will be fellas that overcome and succeed the norm. But for most developers it just not possible. Most developers release there product as freeware and then migrate to payware for the following reasons.

• They feel there last project was in demand and could profit.
  They feel cheated eventually and decide to go payware.
  They continually get emailed by Software distributors to create something.

This is all great and has really diversified our hobby. There is nothing wrong with a fella making some change for his efforts.
On the other hand, there is something wrong with the current situation and the community. Many of or file sites have become so commercially driven (advertising) that they will no longer truly support the Freeware community. Sure the do? But just compare the News headlines just a little more than a year ago to the news headlines of today. The ratio is incredible leaning payware and it will continue to do so. I could care less about reading a review about the latest payware product, but would really like to hear what Don Mossier has been up to or Fred, or Frank bets, not to mention countless others. Most of the authors have moved on to there own sites, simply because of the lack of support and following from freeware to Payware.
But remember. Freeware has driven this thing from the beginning and will continue to do so.

Site like this are extremal valuable to the Flightsim community why. Cause they promote the continual evolution of our hobby.

I will give you a personal example and what freeware / Payware is really worth.
Example: I have had many comments about the RotorWay 162F that we should have made it payware. Many send an offer to send money. NOT!, but thanks. I will always release freeware due to my love of the hobby, and I really enjoy the comments from folks who appreciate your work. It's more gratifying than money any day.

So if I released the RotorWay as payware let's say $10 dollars. And I got 3000downloads hmmm that's 30,000 bucks. - Commercial software license. Customer support. The complaints cause some ting doesn't work quite right. 99percent of the time it's the end user. Plus the Security software to make sure someone doesn't steel it. LOL! hmmm Id pay someone 30,000 grand just to get rid of the headache. not to mention a lawyer for a proper License agreement.

I hate a thief and folks who steel by cracking. but I also get a big laugh from these software agreements trying to protect there product. I can promise you it will cost a whole lot more that 30,000 grand to gather up software thief's and take them to court for a judgment. it's laughable. The should put up a community board of prov-en pukes for all to see. and save there Money. What the puke going to sue you for harassment.

If I was ever to do a payware project I would do it along the Lines of Bill Lyons marketing strategy.
He sells it for a nominal price and then gives it away at the end of the year....
That's cause fellas "This payware stuff is not worth anything".
Hold on don't get mad.
It's really not.
If you can't resell the commodity the commodity has no real value. The item you purchased is purely for ones own pleasure. Once the item is well used, you move on to the next product to support your addiction to cool stuff!
hey!
and that the reality.

 

[Francois]

Don,

I had a good laugh, thanks ! Have you told this the likes of Flight1, Abacus, Just Flight, Aerosoft, simMarket, PC Aviator ? Hmmmm?

I agree that no single developer will get rich, or will even be able to make a (good) living out of FS payware...... but I'm afraid I have to disagree with most of the rest

Francois

 

[timcclayton]

I frankly can't believe the stupidity of the original post, and I think it demonstrates the greed which is creeping into our hobby. We should all be prepared (and happy) to donate freeware aircraft/scenery etc. to our hobby. It is not rocket science to learn how to build an aircraft or some scenery or a few AFCAD files or a panel and so on. So we should all be prepared to pitch in and create for the common good.

Even payware like the PMDG series aircraft are possible for a group of committed developers who wish to develop for free - we have seen some wonderful freeware packages being released over the years.

I have also paid for some appalling payware products over the years too. So much so, that I am not going to be doing so in the future. I have had my fingers burnt too many times, and I have a bunch of software on FS9 that won't work on FSX (and some of it will never work).

And finally, there is no better feeling than producing a freeware product, uploading to AVSIM, and watching the download count going up, receiving e-mails from happy (hopefully!) users who are getting enjoyment from your work. And yes, I support my users as though it was payware, although of course that's up to you as the developer and there is no obligation to do so with freeware.

So if the freeware community is pushing the payware community to do more and more complicated and difficult projects, then GOOD. Most payware developers need it.

 

[dmaher]

Respectfully,I don’t agree PMDG style projects would get completed without some form of remuneration. If they did where are they? POSKY does incredible work, albeit many of the PMDG style systems are absent…. If you want every last system modeled you are going to have to pay someone for it, because it’s a lot to ask. Lets say one or two years (even 3 or 4 years) of evenings and weekends that this developer is not spending with his family or out earning money to put food on his family. I don’t see it as greed. If I value his work…I’ll show him in a substantive way…and buy his product. ..in the best tradition of an artist’s patron. If I don’t…I won’t. Still the spirit of what your saying rings true...freeware is still the backbone of flightsimming. Do you think they ever had this discussion about art or music or even housing?

Danny
CZBB

 

[Horst18519]

I frankly can't believe the stupidity of the original post

I don't want this fascinating thread to become a personal thing, but maybe you could explain a bit to the stupid what exactly is so stupid about the original post?

 

[n4gix]

As a rule when a freeware developer posts a question regarding XML
parts production i will reply with the completed and tested code .
Alternatively the same request from a " professional " will not be
answered any more , why ? ,, two reasons : 1 not getting credit for
the solution , meaning on those occasions that i have " given " the
Code to pro's there has been use made of the XML's in their product(s)
but without thanks or mention of authorship assistance.

Hmmm... Perhaps I'm the exception then, as it seems to me that I give back as much - or more - than I receive... With a few exceptions, I haven't received "credit" for any help I've provided to freeware-only developers, but I certainly won't let that "lack of recognition" inhibit me from sharing all the non-proprietary knowledge I have...

 

[Gerard]

Hmmm... Perhaps I'm the exception then, as it seems to me that I give back as much - or more - than I receive... With a few exceptions, I haven't received "credit" for any help I've provided to freeware-only developers, but I certainly won't let that "lack of recognition" inhibit me from sharing all the non-proprietary knowledge I have...

Where's the medal icon? You're a better man than I am; I've (for the most part) given up on teaching advanced modelling techniques on public forums as I've found that pro's are a lot quicker to pick up on my tuts than amateurs... not good if you're planning to go payware LoL.

Which brings me to the original post, a discussion about the free flow of knowledge - whether it's bad for business, would have been less silly.

gh