Flight Sim World

[katina12]

What sdk? DTG have not said when any sdk will be released. Nor have any rules or conditions been disclosed yet.

im referring to p3d - sdk - not dtg sdk

 

[RicherSims]

That is yet to be seen. I've read on some of the licensing plans, and they do not appear to be developer friendly.

I was speculating strictly based on the fact that the entire sim seems to be very similar to FSX which we already know our way around so well. Licensing is a whole other story that I will stay away from for now, similar to the debate we had pre-P3D release (and look how well that turned out).

 

[pinkjr]

I was speculating strictly based on the fact that the entire sim seems to be very similar to FSX which we already know our way around so well. Licensing is a whole other story that I will stay away from for now, similar to the debate we had pre-P3D release (and look how well that turned out).

Yes, I'm your same page. Licensing though

 

[ronh]

Interesting that Justin's Toposim will work with FSW.

http://www.toposim.net/blog/2017/05/17/flightsim-world-and-toposim-continents/

 

[pinkjr]

If scenery that works otherwise on FSX/P3D work fine on FSW......it means that the bglcomp and other object compilers are very likely unchanged.

 

[HiFlyer]

If scenery that works otherwise on FSX/P3D work fine on FSW......it means that the bglcomp and other object compilers are very likely unchanged.

Three words: Kuju Train Simulator.

 

[Ronald]

I've been diving into this new DoveTail Games flightsimulator the last days and here's an update to what i've found out so far:
1 - http://store.steampowered.com/app/389280/Flight_Sim_World/ - FlightSimWorld - Steam Homepage (NOTE: This is the most complete page on the internet now 18-May-2017)
2 - https://flightsimworld.com/ ------------------------------------------------------ FlightSimWorld - Website............... (NOTE: This website content is not yet completed, please stick to Steam page in the link above for now)
3 - https://www.facebook.com/flightsimworld/ - FSW Facebook page..................................................... (NOTE: needs to be updated too, stick to their FSW Steam page)
4 - https://twitter.com/fltsimworld ...................FSW twitter feed, which is fully up to date an running
5 - https://www.twitch.tv/dovetailgames.......... DoveTail Games twitch feed

===============================================================================
6 - FlightSimWorld "Early Access" release on the Steam platform is today (Thrusday May 18, 2017)
===============================================================================

In order for everyone to understand what is "Early Access" is and means to this simulator and you as a user- read these pages first:

6 - Steam's "Early Access" General platform explanation:
- http://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/?snr=1_5_9_

6 - DoveTail games own "Early Access" explanation in relation to FlightSimWorld can be found here:
Go to the [Early Access] header on the page, click [READ MORE] or continue to read below:
- http://store.steampowered.com/app/389280/Flight_Sim_World/


==[ Taken from the FSW Steam page] =========================================================
Early Access Game: Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops!.
Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. Learn more

Why Early Access?
“The current flight sim space is a fountain of experience and expertise, and Early Access is our way of drawing upon that knowledge to make Flight Sim World the best it can be.
We will have a better, stronger simulation platform if we collaborate with you on the future of this project.”

Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
“We intend to roll out planned features over the next three to four months. This includes time to discuss and implement your valuable feedback.
That being said, we're not setting any hard limits on how long we will be in this phase. When it’s ready, it’s ready!”

How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“During Early Access, we plan to roll out additional features, some of which will have an immediate impact on gameplay while others will provide the necessary extensions for future plans. <----- Important to know!
Ultimately, our criteria for leaving the Early Access program is for Flight Sim World to be a stable platform upon which you are able to build the flight experience you want.”

What is the current state of the Early Access version?
“Flight Sim World is very much still in development. There are still more features and gameplay options which need to be implemented over the next few months which we are excited to share with you as they are made available.”

Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
“The Early Access version of Flight Sim World is priced lower than the full release.
This reflects the amount of content that will be added over the coming months and also makes it a good time for you to get involved in the Early Access process.
Price will change during the Early Access period, however this is largely subject to incoming features.”

How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
“We want to give you the chance to be part of a hobby you are passionate about, while harnessing your knowledge and expertise to make Flight Sim World the best that it can be.
We will be releasing updates and interacting with you regularly to test ideas, resolve issues, and help guide us in the right direction.”
======================================================================================================================================

In short:
A - If you want a complete and finished FSW game, you have to wait for a while.

B - DoveTail Games offers you (the user) the ability to buy their newest flightsimulator game NOW while it is STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT AND NOT FULLY READY/COMPLETE YET!
Everyone on Steam that buys this game can interact - on the Steam Forums - with the DTG-development team to:
- Report bugs in the current release of the software
- Test out new feature that ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED and ROLLED OUT ON THE GO.
- Have discussions with the DTG-FSW development team, bring in your ideas onto the drawing board.
- Simply play (with) the flight-simulator, while the DTG developers are adding new features and content

C - Via the DTG and Steam "Early Acces" method, everyone gets a change to BECOME ACTIVE PART of this games development cycle:
You do not have to what until release candidate 1.0.... No... You get to play and test FSW-versions NOW way before the full-blown-product is completely finished.
DoveTail Games choose this approach to actively engage with - and listen to their community, potential customers of the FlightSimWorld simulator.

D - Watch these official FlightSimWorld videos (especially the Dev one) to get a complete picture:

1 - Product Announcement video

2 - Dev Diary video, Pay special attention around 00:30- when Daniel Dunn explains Early Access in more detail

In short "Early Access" includes:
- "Concurrent fixes" : for quick on-the-fly patches
- "Milestone deliveries" : for adding new features and improved (in-game) content.

This way of development looks very promising to me.. What do you think guys?

 

[Gerli]

Early Access? No thanks. I don't want to pay to be a Betatester...
(I only do that for free on Star Citizen...)

 

[kabekew]

I've installed it and have been looking through all the data files. It looks only very slightly modified from FSX. Specifically:

• SimObjects folder and subfolder structure is the same (with an additional "characters" subfolder).
  
  
• Same top-level subfolders, Addon Scenery, Autogen, Effects, scenery, sound etc.
  
  
• Aircraft have the familiar model/panel/sound/texture folders, .air file, aircraft.cfg that looks like the old format. Aircraft models have a .mdl extension, which is probably a new format. I tried just copying over an FSX aircraft, and it didn't show up in the selection menu (it looks like there are some new special tokens in the aircraft.cfg that might be related to where it belongs in the new aircraft selection UI). However when I selected a different aircraft, it did try to load it presumably as an AI aircraft but gave numerous "not a FSW aircraft" warnings.
  
  
• Gauges still have the same XML language, and it looks like they just copied over some of the FSX gauges verbatim (like the default Garmin).
  
  
• It looks like SimConnect is the API for programmatic access. There's a SimConnect.dll in the main folder (presumably 64 bit), another in an x86 subfolder (32 bit?), and dll.xml that by default loads a2a_feel. They might also be working on programmatic access to the in-game menus, as it also tries to load "AccuFeelMenu.dll" which isn't (yet) provided.

So, looks like it shouldn't be a difficult learning curve or that difficult to port over FSX addons, except maybe 3D objects in the new format.

I did notice framerate was about half of what I get with similar settings in FSX, although it may be a debug build or otherwise not optimized yet.

 

[Dutcheeseblend]

“We want to give you the chance to be part of a hobby you are passionate about, while harnessing your knowledge and expertise to make Flight Sim World the best that it can be.
We will be releasing updates and interacting with you regularly to test ideas, resolve issues, and help guide us in the right direction.”

So, when I want to develop, I get paid back in this form: "having a chance to be part of...". Written by a salesman I guess.
DTG get paid by "my knowledge and expertise"

No, thanks. Not that I'm about making money, but it doesn't feel right.

Oh, by the way, interesting point in this discussion: nobody will force us to do the step to FSW. So I might just leave FSW for what it is.

As an engineer, I'm slightly confused by the modern day 'halfware', with these huge open betas.

As a developer, I do understand the DTG strategy of single-channel distribution. It will mean far better controllability for the developers. But, well, is that really needed?

Cheers, Daan

 

[JB3DG]

Their XML gauge graphics backend is different now though. I suspect they moved it from outdated GDI+ to D3D11 for the vector formats.

 

[kabekew]

That is yet to be seen. I've read on some of the licensing plans, and they do not appear to be developer friendly.

They haven't posted the new terms to their site yet (http://www.dovetailgames.com/terms) but I've read through the EULA that comes with the Steam installation. It seems to me they're trying to be friendly and offer use of their intellectual property (e.g. default gauges) without giving up their rights to what they own.

In fact, I can't even see how it's enforceable. It's an end-user licensing agreement, not a developer agreement. You can create content for the sim without being a user and without needing to agree to the EULA. They can't tell if you did that and had a friend test it, or you terminated the EULA (as it says you can by stop using the software) before you developed and distributed the content.

 

[ronh]

Hmmmm ... Friendly ... I read the EULA a bit differently ...

If you downloaded FSW - read clause 11.2(b) in the pdf EULA

to paraphrase - 11.2 (b) "If you make it (UGC) - we can reverse engineer it and take it"

and 11.2(e) - You can't sell it to a competing Sim

 

[WarpD]

Here is Section 11 of the EULA... which covers USER-GENERATED CONTENT:

11. USER-GENERATED CONTENT
Please read this section carefully before creating or making available any user generated content for the Software:
11.1 If you make content for use with the Software (which we will refer to as "user generated content" or "UGC"), you are solely responsible and liable for that user generated content. We don't accept any liability or responsibility for user generated content for the Software, nor do we provide any support for it. Users of the Software create, download, install and use UGC at their own risk.
11.2 If you create UGC or make UGC available to other users (even if the UGC you make available was not created by you) then you agree (and shall be responsible in ensuring that any other creator or owner of that UGC agrees) that:
(a) to the extent that any part of the UGC which comprises or incorporates any of our Intellectual Property Rights (such as our routes, locomotives, rolling-stock, aircraft or other assets) remains our property;
(b) we have an irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, payment free right to take any actions we consider appropriate (including without limitation to copy, reproduce, market, advertise, modify, adapt, merge, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or create derivative works based on the whole or any part of the UGC), and all consents (if any) required under intellectual property, data protection and privacy laws worldwide, for that use, in respect of any UGC which includes portions of our Intellectual Property Rights;
(c) you must include the following message in a prominent manner with any UGC which you make available to other users (this could be in the manual or 'readme' file you provide with the UGC):
"IMPORTANT NOTICE. This is user generated content designed for use with Dovetail Games Software.
Dovetail Games does not approve or endorse this user generated content and does not accept any liability or responsibility regarding it.
This user generated content has not been screened or tested by Dovetail Games. Accordingly, it may adversely affect your use of Dovetail Games’ products. If you install this user generated content and it infringes the rules regarding user-generated content, Dovetail Games may choose to discontinue any support for that product which they may otherwise have provided.
The Dovetail Games EULA sets out in detail how user generated content may be used, which you can review further here: www.dovetailgames.com/terms. In particular, this user generated content includes work which remains the intellectual property of Dovetail Games and which may not be rented, leased, sub-licensed, modified, adapted, copied, reproduced or redistributed without the permission of Dovetail Games."
(d) you must not in any way claim or suggest that any UGC is endorsed or supported by, or affiliated with, us;
(e) the UGC must not be used in, or made available to, any other simulator software which is similar to or competes with the Software (if you any doubt about this, please contact https://dovetailgames.kayako.com);
(f) the UGC must be free from any and all viruses or other damaging software and must not in any way impair or harm the Software;
(g) the UGC must not infringe any third party Intellectual Property Rights or other rights;
(h) the UGC must comply with all relevant legislation and must not contain any material which may be considered offensive, defamatory, illegal or which could cause any reputational loss or embarrassment to us;
(i) the UGC must be designed and used for personal entertainment and not for any business purpose or for any commercial purpose such as, but not limited to, training, route planning, infrastructure design, advertising or promotion;
(j) you must have the right and ability to meet the terms of this licence (so, for example you must not have agreed to signed a contract with another party on terms that conflict with this agreement);
(k) you must agree that your public username may be advertised and used in connection with the UGC;
11.3 We may provide software or tools which assist the creation of UGC (also known as the “Editor”). Please note that the Editor requires expert knowledge to be used properly. In addition, the Editor is provided on an ‘as is’ basis without any warrant, representation or support by us and may be amended, altered or removed by us at our discretion at any time: and
11.4 If you breach any of these terms and conditions, then we reserve the right to suspend or permanently remove availability of your UGC or to take any other steps we consider appropriate, including under clause 14.2 of this EULA

 

[kabekew]

Hmmmm ... Friendly ... I read the EULA a bit differently ...

If you downloaded FSW - read clause 11.2(b) in the pdf EULA

to paraphrase - 11.2 (b) "If you make it (UGC) - we can reverse engineer it and take it"

and 11.2(e) - You can't sell it to a competing Sim

11.2(b) applies "in respect of any UGC which includes portions of our Intellectual Property Rights;" -- if you create a derivative work of their intellectual property (say, enhance a default gauge and re-distribute it), they can do what they want with it. If you create your own gauge or aircraft, it's you're IP and nothing in that agreement assigns it to them.

11.2(e) you can't distribute their IP to another Sim. They don't want their textures and scenery to show up in X-Plane.

 

[WarpD]

If you utilize any of their "code" from any proferred SDK/API... they can, in essence, claim it as derivative work. As for 11.2(e), no it states you can't make YOUR UGC available to competing sims.

 

[katina12]

(i) the UGC must be designed and used for personal entertainment and not for any business purpose or for any commercial purpose such as, but not limited to, training, route planning, infrastructure design, advertising or promotion;

$$$$ %

 

[kabekew]

If you utilize any of their "code" from any proferred SDK/API... they can, in essence, claim it as derivative work.

Well, don't use code that you don't have permission to use. And the use of header files and linking to libraries has already been established as not constituting a derivative work (otherwise anybody who developed an application for Linux, for example, would have to make it open source).

As for 11.2(e), no it states you can't make YOUR UGC available to competing sims.

That's not how IP ownership and licensing works. This is a EULA, granting a license to use their IP in consideration for your payment to them, so by definition it only pertains to the terms of licensing the IP they own. If they want a non-compete agreement for IP you own or may create in the future, they need to provide you with consideration of some kind, for example payment to you, marketing your product, advertising it, hosting it, etc. Contracts 101. There's no consideration being provided here so the agreement only pertains to their IP (if any) being used in your products.

 

[rhumbaflappy]

Let's just tip-toe around the EULA. We are not lawyers. Dovetail has not yet specified the terms for 3rd party developers, nor provided an SDK.

 

[kabekew]

It looks like it loads FSX aircraft models okay. I copied over the default CRJ into SimObjects/Airplanes, then in aircraft.cfg [fltsim.0] added these:

ui_variation="@IDS_AIRCRAFT_LIVERY_TYPE_STRIPE_2"
ui_typerole="@IDS_TYPE_SINGLE_PROP"
ui_thumbnailfile="texture.1\thumbnail.jpg"
ui_hangarfile="texture.1\thumbnail.jpg"
ui_selectionfile="texture.1\thumbnail.jpg"
ui_tilefile="texture.1\thumbnail.jpg"

Then added these new sections below, apparently only used by the UI:

[Other Reference]
range           = 1000               ; nautical miles at 75%
rate_of_climb        = 1000               ; feet per minute
takeoff_distance   = 1000               ; 50ft obstacle ;
landing_distance   = 1000               ; 50ft obstacle ;
ceiling           = 10000                   ; feet
fuel_capacity       = 50               ; gallons

[UI Strings]
engine_desc           ="Engine description"
prop_desc           ="Prop Description"
crew_pass           ="1 + 3"
short_desc           ="short description"
fuel_consumption_at_cruise= 9.2

The interior and exterior model look fine and it flies fine. It reports an error in the EFIS gauge on loading, and the GPS is blank, but the other gauges seem to work.

The other aircraft I tried to load was an FS2004 model. I'm not a modeller so don't know if the .mdl format changed between FS2004 and FSX and FSW is only supporting the FSX model format, but that's my guess why that one got a "not a FSW model" error.